4 ms·

at the federal level - drug offenses are about half of the population. of course, it's one thing to talk about legalizing marijuana - but i'm not sure what i'm

by lmg643 12y ago

at the federal level - drug offenses are about half of the population. of course, it's one thing to talk about legalizing marijuana - but i'm not sure what i'm supposed to think about early release for a guy who was importing heroin into chicago, so that kids who can't afford reformulated oxycontin have a way to get high. it's all part of the same "non-violent drug offense" coin. this is a pretty reflexive NYT column. once we get away from "non-violent drug offenders" i think the argument loses force. If you spend about 20 minutes reading about the details of the types of gnarly violent crimes the non-drug-related "mass incarcerated" commit, this sort of vague editorializing rings really hollow. people are capable of really heinous stuff.

protomyth 12y ago
I was always disappointed that users ended up in prison. It is an incredible waste of money and doesn't do any good. Smugglers and cookers can rot in prison for all the harm they have caused. Dealers are iffy depending on the circumstances and mandatory sentences for them is really unwarranted. Free the room up for sex offenders that molest kids. Why we let them out given all the studies about repeat offenses, I will never know[1]. I often think "Law and Order" politicians are out of step with what their "Law and Order" voters really want. 1) Also, any prosecutor that tries to get some 18 year old on a list for going out with his 16 year old girlfriend needs to be disbarred. Consensual is a family matter not a court matter.
- vegardx 12y ago
  If you take a look at Louis Theroux documentary, "A Place for Paedophiles", you'll quickly see that the US don't just put sex offenders in prison, they keep them there (in facilities that are technically not a prison, because, well, lawyers) without judgement and without a known release date. Spoiler alert: They never get released.
- jpatokal 12y ago
  Only problem is, most "sex offenders that molest kids" are 18-year-olds busted for bonking their 16-year-old girlfriends. Or, increasingly, taking a piss in the park, streaking a football game, or something equally daft. http://www.freerangekids.com/why-are-we-putting-kids-as-young-as-ten-on-the-sex-offender-registry-for-years/ http://www.freerangekids.com/why-are-we-putting-kids-as-youn...
  - protomyth 12y ago
    That's why I specifically mentioned it. I think it is an abuse of power and lessens the protections on actual victims.
omegaworks 12y ago
>early release for a guy who was importing heroin into chicago Lots of money importing heroin, due to the huge black market created by the criminalization of supply and possession. You know for a fact the guy that got locked up for it got immediately replaced by the next schmuck whose opportunities in this supply chain dramatically eclipse anything he'd be able to attain in his economically devastated, capital-starved community. We created the ghettos, we created the economic incentives that cause good people to make bad choices. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/13/how-we-built-the-ghettos.html http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/13/how-we-buil...
- bluedino 12y ago
  Heroin is a mid to upper class drug
  - dllthomas 12y ago
    Is everyone in the supply chain mid-to-upper class? Is the guy doing time for importing it? The answer could be "yes" - I don't know enough to say with much confidence - but my point is that you seem to be talking about users while parent seemed to be talking about supplier and those are two very different questions with potentially very different answers.
gcd 12y ago
> once we get away from "non-violent drug offenders" i think the argument loses force. I disagree. 97% of federal convictions and 94% of state convictions are the result of plea bargains. At least 4% of death sentences are erroneous. In 2007 there were 2.4 million prisoners in the United States. I'm guessing death row convictions receive much more attention than normal convictions, especially convictions from plea bargains. In this case, we can conservatively guess that the rate of false conviction is higher for plea bargains.. let's say it's 6%. Extrapolate that to the entire prison population, and that's 144,000 people who are wrongfully locked up. That number is far, far too high no matter how you look at it, and I'm guessing it's even worse than that in reality. The way our system abuses the plea bargaining system is morally reprehensible. This alone should be enough to warrant reform. > people are capable of really heinous stuff. People who were raised in shitty circumstances tend to do shitty things. 68% of prisoners don't have a high school diploma. I think that's pretty telling on its own. The real question is: what is the point of prison? Is it a place wherein troubled individuals can receive treatment and be corrected so that they may be reintegrated at some point and become functioning and productive members of society? Or is simply a place that we punish people indiscriminately? Recidivism rates tell the story. In California, 60% of the formerly incarcerated end up back in prison. Prison is obviously not a place for treatment or healing or anything that might improve the lives of the people who enter it. It is a place that society simply locks the people up that it doesn't like - for the most part, poor black people. But there is hope. When I see things like this: http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2014/05/13/rehab-program-boasts-nearly-70-percent-cut-in-prisoner-recidivism-rates/ http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2014/05/13/rehab-program-boas... , it gives me hope that people will realize that the way we're handling 'corrections' produces more criminals than it stops. Our system currently doesn't work if the goal is to reduce crime in the long run. I wonder how many criminals we have created because of false convictions. Or because of the war on drugs, since the number of federal prisoners has jumped 790% since 1980 (do you really think people have been committing 790% more crime since then?)
- ekianjo 12y ago
  > what is the point of prison? Is it a place wherein troubled individuals can receive treatment and be corrected so that they may be reintegrated at some point and become functioning and productive members of society? It's never been the first objective of prison. Prison exists to ensure the people who are dangerous or detrimental to society remain excluded from roaming in the streets and causing more trouble. This whole idea of "prison to reeducate people" is very much a creation of recent history.

by lmg643 12y ago

protomyth 12y ago

I was always disappointed that users ended up in prison. It is an incredible waste of money and doesn't do any good. Smugglers and cookers can rot in prison for all the harm they have caused. Dealers are iffy depending on the circumstances and mandatory sentences for them is really unwarranted. Free the room up for sex offenders that molest kids. Why we let them out given all the studies about repeat offenses, I will never know[1]. I often think "Law and Order" politicians are out of step with what their "Law and Order" voters really want. 1) Also, any prosecutor that tries to get some 18 year old on a list for going out with his 16 year old girlfriend needs to be disbarred. Consensual is a family matter not a court matter.

vegardx 12y ago
If you take a look at Louis Theroux documentary, "A Place for Paedophiles", you'll quickly see that the US don't just put sex offenders in prison, they keep them there (in facilities that are technically not a prison, because, well, lawyers) without judgement and without a known release date. Spoiler alert: They never get released.
jpatokal 12y ago
Only problem is, most "sex offenders that molest kids" are 18-year-olds busted for bonking their 16-year-old girlfriends. Or, increasingly, taking a piss in the park, streaking a football game, or something equally daft. http://www.freerangekids.com/why-are-we-putting-kids-as-young-as-ten-on-the-sex-offender-registry-for-years/ http://www.freerangekids.com/why-are-we-putting-kids-as-youn...
- protomyth 12y ago
  That's why I specifically mentioned it. I think it is an abuse of power and lessens the protections on actual victims.

omegaworks 12y ago

>early release for a guy who was importing heroin into chicago Lots of money importing heroin, due to the huge black market created by the criminalization of supply and possession. You know for a fact the guy that got locked up for it got immediately replaced by the next schmuck whose opportunities in this supply chain dramatically eclipse anything he'd be able to attain in his economically devastated, capital-starved community. We created the ghettos, we created the economic incentives that cause good people to make bad choices. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/13/how-we-built-the-ghettos.html http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/13/how-we-buil...

bluedino 12y ago
Heroin is a mid to upper class drug
- dllthomas 12y ago
  Is everyone in the supply chain mid-to-upper class? Is the guy doing time for importing it? The answer could be "yes" - I don't know enough to say with much confidence - but my point is that you seem to be talking about users while parent seemed to be talking about supplier and those are two very different questions with potentially very different answers.

gcd 12y ago

> once we get away from "non-violent drug offenders" i think the argument loses force. I disagree. 97% of federal convictions and 94% of state convictions are the result of plea bargains. At least 4% of death sentences are erroneous. In 2007 there were 2.4 million prisoners in the United States. I'm guessing death row convictions receive much more attention than normal convictions, especially convictions from plea bargains. In this case, we can conservatively guess that the rate of false conviction is higher for plea bargains.. let's say it's 6%. Extrapolate that to the entire prison population, and that's 144,000 people who are wrongfully locked up. That number is far, far too high no matter how you look at it, and I'm guessing it's even worse than that in reality. The way our system abuses the plea bargaining system is morally reprehensible. This alone should be enough to warrant reform. > people are capable of really heinous stuff. People who were raised in shitty circumstances tend to do shitty things. 68% of prisoners don't have a high school diploma. I think that's pretty telling on its own. The real question is: what is the point of prison? Is it a place wherein troubled individuals can receive treatment and be corrected so that they may be reintegrated at some point and become functioning and productive members of society? Or is simply a place that we punish people indiscriminately? Recidivism rates tell the story. In California, 60% of the formerly incarcerated end up back in prison. Prison is obviously not a place for treatment or healing or anything that might improve the lives of the people who enter it. It is a place that society simply locks the people up that it doesn't like - for the most part, poor black people. But there is hope. When I see things like this: http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2014/05/13/rehab-program-boasts-nearly-70-percent-cut-in-prisoner-recidivism-rates/ http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2014/05/13/rehab-program-boas... , it gives me hope that people will realize that the way we're handling 'corrections' produces more criminals than it stops. Our system currently doesn't work if the goal is to reduce crime in the long run. I wonder how many criminals we have created because of false convictions. Or because of the war on drugs, since the number of federal prisoners has jumped 790% since 1980 (do you really think people have been committing 790% more crime since then?)

ekianjo 12y ago
> what is the point of prison? Is it a place wherein troubled individuals can receive treatment and be corrected so that they may be reintegrated at some point and become functioning and productive members of society? It's never been the first objective of prison. Prison exists to ensure the people who are dangerous or detrimental to society remain excluded from roaming in the streets and causing more trouble. This whole idea of "prison to reeducate people" is very much a creation of recent history.