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I agree with most of what you said but: > Karpeles seems to have a history of lying. He was caught in a lie by his employer in 2004 Everybody "has a history o

I agree with most of what you said but: > Karpeles seems to have a history of lying. He was caught in a lie by his employer in 2004 Everybody "has a history of lying", because everybody lies. One incident of lying to an employer about IM'ing (or using Facebook or HN while at work, which almost every HN user has likely done) does not a future fraud make. Lying is universal - we all do it. Therefore, the wise thing is for us diligently to train ourselves to lie thoughtfully, judiciously; to lie with a good object, and not an evil one; to lie for others' advantage, and not our own; to lie healingly, charitably, humanely, not cruelly, hurtfully, maliciously; to lie gracefully and graciously, not awkwardly and clumsily; to lie firmly, frankly, squarely, with head erect, not haltingly, tortuously, with pusillanimous mien, as being ashamed of our high calling. - Mark Twain

pdkl95 12y ago
This is what we call "projection". You may lie sometimes, and so you assume other people do as well. Some of us don't. Personally, I don't have the room in my head for it; there far more important thing to try and remember, and trying to keep track of lies would eat up way to much wetware. I make no claims as to frequency of non-lying - it be a rare trait. I have met a couple others, though, so "everybody" is incorrect.
- lsc 12y ago
  >Some of us don't. Personally, I don't have the room in my head for it; there far more important thing to try and remember, and trying to keep track of lies would eat up way to much wetware. You must have a, ah, very narrow conception of what a lie is. I mean, sure, most of us don't build a complex and self-consistent web of deception where we maintain several different self-consistent models of reality at once. But that's not the only sort of lie. The most common substantive lie, I think, is the "tell them what they want to hear" lie. E.g. "are you working?" alt-tab "Yeah, I'm working" Or even more commonly, checking personal email, facebook, or a webcomic on work time, and still putting that '8' on your timesheet. For me? I don't do this on things that matter, and for me, work matters. e.g. if you ask if I'm working, but I'm on HN? I say, "No, I'm screwing off" If I'm having a hard time focusing, say, and I spend time on HN, my timesheet will have very few hours on it. But, if you ask "how are you?" Quite often, I will say "fine" even if it is a lie. I excuse this lie by explaining it away as a greeting, but really? I don't want to spend time with a non-standard but more truthful answer, most of the time. But a lot of people give the expected answer, even when the answer is a little bit important. This is the sort of lie that most people tell.
  - pdkl95 12y ago
    > You must have a, ah, very narrow conception of what a lie is. I'm quite aware of all the various types of lies people tell. > The most common substantive lie, I think, is the "tell them what they want to hear" lie. No, I don't tell that kind of lie either. > "how are you?" Quite often, I will say "fine" even if it is a lie. These really annoy me, because it's a waste of time. It conveys no information. Worse, it can encourage burring problems under a facade of being "fine". Again, I understand that most people habitually tell "little white lies". That doesn't mean everybody does.
    - ubercow13 12y ago
      You're missing out. Lying is an incredibly useful social tool that society would maybe fall apart without.
    - argumentum 12y ago
      So you're a pathological truth-teller?
- argumentum 12y ago
  I think you missed my point: the OP had linked to an accusation by an employer that Mr. Karpeles had been using IM software while claiming to be working. If such an innocuous "lie" was any evidence that someone could commit fraud, then we are in big trouble. Because that sort of lie isn't merely rare, ~everyone does so at some point. They don't necessarily do it to be deceitful, rather because it's easier than the alternative. I don't think it has any moral or ethical quality to it. For instance, say I was having trouble with my girlfriend and couldn't concentrate at work. So I instead was diddle-dallying around and browsing HN. I don't have the time or desire to explain to my boss the personal reasons why I was on HN, so instead I might say I was "refactoring" or doing code review. The next day, I'm fine and work extra hard to compensate .. no harm, no foul. I think most people would find that to be a reasonable "white lie".

pdkl95 12y ago

This is what we call "projection". You may lie sometimes, and so you assume other people do as well. Some of us don't. Personally, I don't have the room in my head for it; there far more important thing to try and remember, and trying to keep track of lies would eat up way to much wetware. I make no claims as to frequency of non-lying - it be a rare trait. I have met a couple others, though, so "everybody" is incorrect.

lsc 12y ago
>Some of us don't. Personally, I don't have the room in my head for it; there far more important thing to try and remember, and trying to keep track of lies would eat up way to much wetware. You must have a, ah, very narrow conception of what a lie is. I mean, sure, most of us don't build a complex and self-consistent web of deception where we maintain several different self-consistent models of reality at once. But that's not the only sort of lie. The most common substantive lie, I think, is the "tell them what they want to hear" lie. E.g. "are you working?" alt-tab "Yeah, I'm working" Or even more commonly, checking personal email, facebook, or a webcomic on work time, and still putting that '8' on your timesheet. For me? I don't do this on things that matter, and for me, work matters. e.g. if you ask if I'm working, but I'm on HN? I say, "No, I'm screwing off" If I'm having a hard time focusing, say, and I spend time on HN, my timesheet will have very few hours on it. But, if you ask "how are you?" Quite often, I will say "fine" even if it is a lie. I excuse this lie by explaining it away as a greeting, but really? I don't want to spend time with a non-standard but more truthful answer, most of the time. But a lot of people give the expected answer, even when the answer is a little bit important. This is the sort of lie that most people tell.
- pdkl95 12y ago
  > You must have a, ah, very narrow conception of what a lie is. I'm quite aware of all the various types of lies people tell. > The most common substantive lie, I think, is the "tell them what they want to hear" lie. No, I don't tell that kind of lie either. > "how are you?" Quite often, I will say "fine" even if it is a lie. These really annoy me, because it's a waste of time. It conveys no information. Worse, it can encourage burring problems under a facade of being "fine". Again, I understand that most people habitually tell "little white lies". That doesn't mean everybody does.
  - ubercow13 12y ago
    You're missing out. Lying is an incredibly useful social tool that society would maybe fall apart without.
  - argumentum 12y ago
    So you're a pathological truth-teller?
argumentum 12y ago
I think you missed my point: the OP had linked to an accusation by an employer that Mr. Karpeles had been using IM software while claiming to be working. If such an innocuous "lie" was any evidence that someone could commit fraud, then we are in big trouble. Because that sort of lie isn't merely rare, ~everyone does so at some point. They don't necessarily do it to be deceitful, rather because it's easier than the alternative. I don't think it has any moral or ethical quality to it. For instance, say I was having trouble with my girlfriend and couldn't concentrate at work. So I instead was diddle-dallying around and browsing HN. I don't have the time or desire to explain to my boss the personal reasons why I was on HN, so instead I might say I was "refactoring" or doing code review. The next day, I'm fine and work extra hard to compensate .. no harm, no foul. I think most people would find that to be a reasonable "white lie".