6 ms·

You can't separate the religion out of it. This kind of joke wouldn't work against anyone else. It's only because of their bullshit "hard line on (something all

by sho 17y ago

You can't separate the religion out of it. This kind of joke wouldn't work against anyone else. It's only because of their bullshit "hard line on (something allegedly bad)" or from making a big deal about their piety and "clean lifestyle", that they're susceptible to such pranks in the first place. Reasonable people unconcerned with maintaining a squeaky clean image would indeed just laugh it off. I think it's fine to mock stupidity in all its forms, so the archaic superstition of religious belief is fair game. I'd be equally fine with mocking racism, homophobia, any other religion, etc - all of which, you'll note, would also be susceptible to this kind of attack. Coincidence? Anyway I think you're well aware of my views from other discussions so I won't repeat myself. what kinds of jokes we can make against ethnic groups? Minorities? People who are retarded?" Christianity is a choice, unlike membership in the other groups you've mentioned. That changes everything.

DanielBMarkham 17y ago
You said you wouldn't repeat yourself yet you can't seem to help it, eh? Let's say I choose to believe in the Great Pumpkin. I mean I really believe in him. I've got the wall stickers, posters, the book of the great pumpkin -- everything. Now -- aside from your predilection for belittling people who don't live up to your intellectual expectations, do you think it's right for you to take over my FaceBook account and start a long diatribe about how the Great Pumpkin sucks? Don't you see how that's worse than just being an asshole? You're taking over somebody's persona on the net and making them trash their own value system. That's not civil conversation. That's not even mocking people you think are stupid. It's a whole other level of nastiness altogether.
- mquander 17y ago
  I think that the point is that believing in the Great Pumpkin that hard is inherently absurd, and if you're going to carry on shaping your life around your belief in it, you should understand that some other people will think it's absurd, and steel yourself for some ridicule. I think breaking into people's stuff to mock them is being a pretty big asshole, but I don't think it's worse than being an asshole.
  - pyre 17y ago
    The problem is that when people get into things that hard they tend to only 'stick to their own kind.' It's really easy to be sucked into things really hard like that when you're only around other people that believe in it that hard. Why do you think that most cults have compounds, and that in some cults you're not allowed to talk to outsiders?
- sho 17y ago
  "do you think it's right for you to take over my FaceBook account and start a long diatribe about how the Great Pumpkin sucks?" I can't believe I'm hearing this. Yes? Of course? I mean, I don't condone people hacking FB accounts, of course. But why do you think a belief as ridiculous as that deserves any protection whatsoever? I'm not really singling out Christianity, either. If someone hacked a known homophobe's Facebook account and posted photoshopped pictures of them sucking cock, or got into a racist's account and started talking about their black girlfriend, I'd applaud, and couldn't give a damn about "making them trash their own value system". And the funny thing is, if the opposite occurred and, say, a right wing nutcase hacked my FB account and could say whatever they wanted - they couldn't really do any damage, because my entire self-image isn't founded on maintaining some ridiculous social façade. It would be an embarrassing security lapse, possibly provoke some mild teasing from friends and family, and life would go on. ======= UPDATE: Man, I am a really bad debater. I'm coming across pro-vandalism and anti-peaceful-tolerance here. Despite my views on religion that's not what I wanted to say; my argumentative position is drifting towards the extreme to oppose Mr. Markham. If I were a better debater, I'd be able to resist that - we're well into "devil's advocate" territory for me by now. I do not condone these attacks. I wanted to make the point that I don't consider these attacks to be particularly hurtful or serious, and that anyone who is seriously upset "when somebody takes their identity and has them say things they never would" should lighten up. I got a little too far into "asshole mode" above too. I won't change it now but actually, I wouldn't support defacement of this Great Pumpkin believer's page. Why? Because my whole actable complaint against religion is that it's intolerant. I strongly oppose religious superstition, of course, but that's not a legitimate reason to take action against them. Simply being stupid is not evil, in and of itself. Intolerance, however, is the actable offence and that's what legitimises attacks upon religion. Now if the Followers of the Great Pumpkin had a political agenda against other segments of the worlds' population, that would be a casus belli. I would like to say, though, that if you hold beliefs that seem to make you a favourite "lulz target" then you should probably re-examine them.
  - kaa2102 17y ago
    "I would like to say, though, that if you hold beliefs that seem to make you a favourite "lulz target" then you should probably re-examine them" The only way to not be a target is to believe in "nothing". He who stands for nothing will fall for anything. That's not a good way to live.
- shiranaihito 17y ago
  You're taking over somebody's persona on the net and making them trash their own value system. Well, the victims still have their own value systems, I wouldn't say this stunt trashed it for anyone. But.. That's not civil conversation. That's not even mocking people you think are stupid. It's a whole other level of nastiness altogether. This I agree with completely. I feel sorry for religious people just as much as the next sensible guy, but what the 4chan people did is not funny, it's not commendable, it's just world-class douchebaggery.
gscott 17y ago
Luckily Christianity is a choice. Take over a Muslim's account and post raunchy items on it and that person might end up dead.
- sho 17y ago
  How about posting items that insinuate someone is a child molester. Or that they're gay. Or a terrorist. All of these could endanger their lives, even in a western country. Religion and ignorance, in all their forms, are a curse upon mankind and should be mercilessly eradicated.
  - gscott 17y ago
    > Religion and ignorance, in all their forms, are a curse upon mankind and should be mercilessly eradicated. There is so much to know we are all ignorant. Some of us realize we are ignorant and some are so full of themselves they think they know everything. You might notice that countries that ban or curtail religion want the people to depend upon the government (either do what the government says or starve). Any sort of organized Religion is the closest thing to a social safety net that is not government run. Until recently, even the United States didn't have a social safety net. When I was in my teens and 20's I thought the same way as you. Then I became less ignorant. I know I don't know what I don't know and I don't go around pretending to know everything.
    - pyre 17y ago
      > When I was in my teens and 20's I thought the same way as you. Then I became less ignorant. I know I don't know what I don't know and I don't go around pretending to know everything But that's not the case with most religion. Most religion says, "We know everything. The answers to everything in life is $DIETY!" Look at all of the Evangelicals that run around trying to force their religion on everyone else, and becoming 'soldiers for Jesus' or whatever it is they do in the 'Jesus Camps.' I can see your point with religion being a 'social safety net,' but that is historically true because it's the best way to bolster membership. When people are down on their luck and maybe feeling like the world is against them, $DIETY's followers are there to help pick you up and tell you that $DIETY is the meaning of life while they help you out.
shiranaihito 17y ago
It's only because of their bullshit "hard line on (something allegedly bad)" or from making a big deal about their piety and "clean lifestyle", that they're susceptible to such pranks in the first place. I thought they were susceptible to this because of security problems with a website, and not specifically because they're religious? Reasonable people unconcerned with maintaining a squeaky clean image would indeed just laugh it off. Right, so if someone did the same thing to you, you're absolutely sure you'd think it was hilarious and laught it off, without feeling even a hint of annoyance about it?

by sho 17y ago

DanielBMarkham 17y ago

You said you wouldn't repeat yourself yet you can't seem to help it, eh? Let's say I choose to believe in the Great Pumpkin. I mean I really believe in him. I've got the wall stickers, posters, the book of the great pumpkin -- everything. Now -- aside from your predilection for belittling people who don't live up to your intellectual expectations, do you think it's right for you to take over my FaceBook account and start a long diatribe about how the Great Pumpkin sucks? Don't you see how that's worse than just being an asshole? You're taking over somebody's persona on the net and making them trash their own value system. That's not civil conversation. That's not even mocking people you think are stupid. It's a whole other level of nastiness altogether.

mquander 17y ago
I think that the point is that believing in the Great Pumpkin that hard is inherently absurd, and if you're going to carry on shaping your life around your belief in it, you should understand that some other people will think it's absurd, and steel yourself for some ridicule. I think breaking into people's stuff to mock them is being a pretty big asshole, but I don't think it's worse than being an asshole.
- pyre 17y ago
  The problem is that when people get into things that hard they tend to only 'stick to their own kind.' It's really easy to be sucked into things really hard like that when you're only around other people that believe in it that hard. Why do you think that most cults have compounds, and that in some cults you're not allowed to talk to outsiders?
sho 17y ago
"do you think it's right for you to take over my FaceBook account and start a long diatribe about how the Great Pumpkin sucks?" I can't believe I'm hearing this. Yes? Of course? I mean, I don't condone people hacking FB accounts, of course. But why do you think a belief as ridiculous as that deserves any protection whatsoever? I'm not really singling out Christianity, either. If someone hacked a known homophobe's Facebook account and posted photoshopped pictures of them sucking cock, or got into a racist's account and started talking about their black girlfriend, I'd applaud, and couldn't give a damn about "making them trash their own value system". And the funny thing is, if the opposite occurred and, say, a right wing nutcase hacked my FB account and could say whatever they wanted - they couldn't really do any damage, because my entire self-image isn't founded on maintaining some ridiculous social façade. It would be an embarrassing security lapse, possibly provoke some mild teasing from friends and family, and life would go on. ======= UPDATE: Man, I am a really bad debater. I'm coming across pro-vandalism and anti-peaceful-tolerance here. Despite my views on religion that's not what I wanted to say; my argumentative position is drifting towards the extreme to oppose Mr. Markham. If I were a better debater, I'd be able to resist that - we're well into "devil's advocate" territory for me by now. I do not condone these attacks. I wanted to make the point that I don't consider these attacks to be particularly hurtful or serious, and that anyone who is seriously upset "when somebody takes their identity and has them say things they never would" should lighten up. I got a little too far into "asshole mode" above too. I won't change it now but actually, I wouldn't support defacement of this Great Pumpkin believer's page. Why? Because my whole actable complaint against religion is that it's intolerant. I strongly oppose religious superstition, of course, but that's not a legitimate reason to take action against them. Simply being stupid is not evil, in and of itself. Intolerance, however, is the actable offence and that's what legitimises attacks upon religion. Now if the Followers of the Great Pumpkin had a political agenda against other segments of the worlds' population, that would be a casus belli. I would like to say, though, that if you hold beliefs that seem to make you a favourite "lulz target" then you should probably re-examine them.
- kaa2102 17y ago
  "I would like to say, though, that if you hold beliefs that seem to make you a favourite "lulz target" then you should probably re-examine them" The only way to not be a target is to believe in "nothing". He who stands for nothing will fall for anything. That's not a good way to live.
shiranaihito 17y ago
You're taking over somebody's persona on the net and making them trash their own value system. Well, the victims still have their own value systems, I wouldn't say this stunt trashed it for anyone. But.. That's not civil conversation. That's not even mocking people you think are stupid. It's a whole other level of nastiness altogether. This I agree with completely. I feel sorry for religious people just as much as the next sensible guy, but what the 4chan people did is not funny, it's not commendable, it's just world-class douchebaggery.

gscott 17y ago

Luckily Christianity is a choice. Take over a Muslim's account and post raunchy items on it and that person might end up dead.

sho 17y ago
How about posting items that insinuate someone is a child molester. Or that they're gay. Or a terrorist. All of these could endanger their lives, even in a western country. Religion and ignorance, in all their forms, are a curse upon mankind and should be mercilessly eradicated.
- gscott 17y ago
  > Religion and ignorance, in all their forms, are a curse upon mankind and should be mercilessly eradicated. There is so much to know we are all ignorant. Some of us realize we are ignorant and some are so full of themselves they think they know everything. You might notice that countries that ban or curtail religion want the people to depend upon the government (either do what the government says or starve). Any sort of organized Religion is the closest thing to a social safety net that is not government run. Until recently, even the United States didn't have a social safety net. When I was in my teens and 20's I thought the same way as you. Then I became less ignorant. I know I don't know what I don't know and I don't go around pretending to know everything.
  - pyre 17y ago
    > When I was in my teens and 20's I thought the same way as you. Then I became less ignorant. I know I don't know what I don't know and I don't go around pretending to know everything But that's not the case with most religion. Most religion says, "We know everything. The answers to everything in life is $DIETY!" Look at all of the Evangelicals that run around trying to force their religion on everyone else, and becoming 'soldiers for Jesus' or whatever it is they do in the 'Jesus Camps.' I can see your point with religion being a 'social safety net,' but that is historically true because it's the best way to bolster membership. When people are down on their luck and maybe feeling like the world is against them, $DIETY's followers are there to help pick you up and tell you that $DIETY is the meaning of life while they help you out.

shiranaihito 17y ago

It's only because of their bullshit "hard line on (something allegedly bad)" or from making a big deal about their piety and "clean lifestyle", that they're susceptible to such pranks in the first place. I thought they were susceptible to this because of security problems with a website, and not specifically because they're religious? Reasonable people unconcerned with maintaining a squeaky clean image would indeed just laugh it off. Right, so if someone did the same thing to you, you're absolutely sure you'd think it was hilarious and laught it off, without feeling even a hint of annoyance about it?