4 ms·

It's both fascinating and horrifying to me how high the loans in the USA are, and the fact that they're 'proper' loans. Here in The Netherlands, I know quite a

by mercer 12y ago

It's both fascinating and horrifying to me how high the loans in the USA are, and the fact that they're 'proper' loans. Here in The Netherlands, I know quite a few people who didn't get any student loans because they wanted to avoid any debt at all cost. And the Dutch student loans are not even 'proper' loans. If you don't have a job, for example, you pay a monthly minimum of around 50 euro (I think). Of course, the fact that this is possible here in itself is a nice thing, and times are changing here too. But if I had lived in the US, I might've never gone to college just to avoid such staggering debts.

withdavidli 12y ago
>But if I had lived in the US, I might've never gone to college just to avoid such staggering debts. I think it would be hard to avoid college if you had lived here. We are told from a very early age that to be successful a person should go to college. Stats like a college graduate makes $1m-2m more over their lifetime than a person who didn't go to college. If DARE (Drug resistance program here in the states) ever taught me anything, it's that peer pressure works. If everyone else is doing it, you probably will too. Asch's experiment is a good example of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments I've known people from European countries that don't have to anything for college education, but their taxes are about 60% (they probably also have universal health care too). I think as long as we see the impact our tax money has, to provide for our basic needs, people are willing to pay these rates. But how governments spends money these days it's no wonder why no one wants to pay taxes.
- mercer 12y ago
  Good point. Just the pressure from my parents would've probably been enough to push me to go to college anyways... Taxes here are pretty high, I guess, but realizing the costs in the US for health care and college makes me happy to live here. And from the brief time I spent in the US I didn't get the feeling that people in my 'class' (first-generation middle-class, white, educated) were living more comfortably than I was.
vanderZwan 12y ago
> Here in The Netherlands, I know quite a few people who didn't get any student loans because they wanted to avoid any debt at all cost. And the Dutch student loans are not even 'proper' loans. If you don't have a job, for example, you pay a monthly minimum of around 50 euro (I think). If you started to study over half a decade ago and still fall under the old system, that minimum is 0 euro's. Which is nothing compared to the even older system with it's infamous "eternal students", but let's not digress. Either way, if you haven't paid everything back in the first fifteen years after graduating, your remaining debt is cancelled.
- mercer 12y ago
  Ah yes, the good old days :). At least I graduated when master's degrees didn't have variable costs yet! > Either way, if you haven't paid everything back in the first fifteen years after graduating, your remaining debt is cancelled. I understood that they do extend that period for the time that you don't pay back your loan. Is that incorrect?
  - vanderZwan 12y ago
    It is, you are confusing two things. You can ask to temporarily suspend paying back your loan. That extends the period. However, this is not the same as the zero euros per month if you have minimal income and are part of the old system.
    - mercer 12y ago
      Ah, thanks for clearing that up. I think I'm part of the new, or at least newer system. I also vaguely recall they upped the 15 years to 25, but for me it's not a big issue as right now I can pay my monthly calculated amount without issues.
      - vanderZwan 12y ago
        I'm just happy they can't do those things retro-actively :P.
SilasX 12y ago
In the US, if you avoid debt at all costs, you get a rude awakening when you apply even for secured loans because you have "no credit". What's worse, the "what's my score" sites will tell you you have a high score, even as every lender thinks you're a hobo! Yes, I know (now) that there are ways to get out of the catch 22 (get a tiny limit or secured CC) but it was an unpleasant surprise at the time given that it's drilled into you that "you should stay away from debt and credit cards" (which really means CCs on which you don't pay in full each month, and which you must carry). Is the Netherlands anything like that on credit?
- mercer 12y ago
  Ah yes, the credit score. I remember a friend explaining that to me when I visited her in the US. It shocked me! This does not really exist here, and I'm pretty sure that's the case for most of Europe. I'd say at the very least most middle-class-and-above children are strongly imprinted with the concept that debt is bad. Furthermore, I suspect that at least here in The Netherlands there are pretty strong regulations on credit-style business ventures and advertising (or buying with monthly payments). Basically, our approach is that if you can't pay for something, you shouldn't buy it. Among my friends, whatever their personal situation, most don't even have a credit card (and I'm almost thirty!). And when they do, it's usually specifically for buying stuff that you can't pay for with a debit card. In my case, for example, I was pretty quick with a credit card because I was 'internet-savvy', but I specifically got a student version that has a -1000 euro limit and that automatically resets to 0 every month.
  - SilasX 12y ago
    I find it hard to believe that Dutch lenders don't quantify credit risk into something that's effectively a "credit score". Did you mean that there's some particular aspect of credit scoring as it works in America that doesn't happen in the Netherlands?
    - mercer 12y ago
      They do look at your financial situation if you want to make a loan, if that's what you mean. I was responding primarily to "In the US, if you avoid debt at all costs, you get a rude awakening." As far as I can tell, that's not the case in Holland. It's better to not have any kind of debt if you get a loan. Which seems like a sensible approach to me. (but I am not well versed in all this, so if you really want to know I suggest you ask a Dutchman who has had experience with loans other than big student loans!)

by mercer 12y ago

withdavidli 12y ago

>But if I had lived in the US, I might've never gone to college just to avoid such staggering debts. I think it would be hard to avoid college if you had lived here. We are told from a very early age that to be successful a person should go to college. Stats like a college graduate makes $1m-2m more over their lifetime than a person who didn't go to college. If DARE (Drug resistance program here in the states) ever taught me anything, it's that peer pressure works. If everyone else is doing it, you probably will too. Asch's experiment is a good example of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments I've known people from European countries that don't have to anything for college education, but their taxes are about 60% (they probably also have universal health care too). I think as long as we see the impact our tax money has, to provide for our basic needs, people are willing to pay these rates. But how governments spends money these days it's no wonder why no one wants to pay taxes.

mercer 12y ago
Good point. Just the pressure from my parents would've probably been enough to push me to go to college anyways... Taxes here are pretty high, I guess, but realizing the costs in the US for health care and college makes me happy to live here. And from the brief time I spent in the US I didn't get the feeling that people in my 'class' (first-generation middle-class, white, educated) were living more comfortably than I was.

vanderZwan 12y ago

> Here in The Netherlands, I know quite a few people who didn't get any student loans because they wanted to avoid any debt at all cost. And the Dutch student loans are not even 'proper' loans. If you don't have a job, for example, you pay a monthly minimum of around 50 euro (I think). If you started to study over half a decade ago and still fall under the old system, that minimum is 0 euro's. Which is nothing compared to the even older system with it's infamous "eternal students", but let's not digress. Either way, if you haven't paid everything back in the first fifteen years after graduating, your remaining debt is cancelled.

mercer 12y ago
Ah yes, the good old days :). At least I graduated when master's degrees didn't have variable costs yet! > Either way, if you haven't paid everything back in the first fifteen years after graduating, your remaining debt is cancelled. I understood that they do extend that period for the time that you don't pay back your loan. Is that incorrect?
- vanderZwan 12y ago
  It is, you are confusing two things. You can ask to temporarily suspend paying back your loan. That extends the period. However, this is not the same as the zero euros per month if you have minimal income and are part of the old system.
  - mercer 12y ago
    Ah, thanks for clearing that up. I think I'm part of the new, or at least newer system. I also vaguely recall they upped the 15 years to 25, but for me it's not a big issue as right now I can pay my monthly calculated amount without issues.
    - vanderZwan 12y ago
      I'm just happy they can't do those things retro-actively :P.

SilasX 12y ago

In the US, if you avoid debt at all costs, you get a rude awakening when you apply even for secured loans because you have "no credit". What's worse, the "what's my score" sites will tell you you have a high score, even as every lender thinks you're a hobo! Yes, I know (now) that there are ways to get out of the catch 22 (get a tiny limit or secured CC) but it was an unpleasant surprise at the time given that it's drilled into you that "you should stay away from debt and credit cards" (which really means CCs on which you don't pay in full each month, and which you must carry). Is the Netherlands anything like that on credit?

mercer 12y ago
Ah yes, the credit score. I remember a friend explaining that to me when I visited her in the US. It shocked me! This does not really exist here, and I'm pretty sure that's the case for most of Europe. I'd say at the very least most middle-class-and-above children are strongly imprinted with the concept that debt is bad. Furthermore, I suspect that at least here in The Netherlands there are pretty strong regulations on credit-style business ventures and advertising (or buying with monthly payments). Basically, our approach is that if you can't pay for something, you shouldn't buy it. Among my friends, whatever their personal situation, most don't even have a credit card (and I'm almost thirty!). And when they do, it's usually specifically for buying stuff that you can't pay for with a debit card. In my case, for example, I was pretty quick with a credit card because I was 'internet-savvy', but I specifically got a student version that has a -1000 euro limit and that automatically resets to 0 every month.
- SilasX 12y ago
  I find it hard to believe that Dutch lenders don't quantify credit risk into something that's effectively a "credit score". Did you mean that there's some particular aspect of credit scoring as it works in America that doesn't happen in the Netherlands?
  - mercer 12y ago
    They do look at your financial situation if you want to make a loan, if that's what you mean. I was responding primarily to "In the US, if you avoid debt at all costs, you get a rude awakening." As far as I can tell, that's not the case in Holland. It's better to not have any kind of debt if you get a loan. Which seems like a sensible approach to me. (but I am not well versed in all this, so if you really want to know I suggest you ask a Dutchman who has had experience with loans other than big student loans!)