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It's done by companies with small barriers to entry - if you wanted to be a startup in the rough diamond world, you'd need billions of dollars in start up capit

It's done by companies with small barriers to entry - if you wanted to be a startup in the rough diamond world, you'd need billions of dollars in start up capital, and access to a mine that's producing diamonds, which aren't just lying around. Figure billions more to buy a mine. Even then, you might get 3% market share, not enough to meet demand or alter prices in any way.

bane 12y ago
> you'd need billions of dollars in start up capital Two more points: a) Considering a chat app pulled in billions of capital, it's not like there isn't billions of capital available. Now that I have such capital in hand, it sounds like I'm pretty well situated to make this a practical idea. b) Why mine? Why not just grow? The diamonds are of better quality. Why can't I be the SpaceX of diamonds, start from first principles and build my own diamond growing tools, start mass producing 1-2 carat diamonds and dump them on the market. Set up regional diamond growing facilities each turning out thousands of diamonds a day, 24 hours a day. They'll be virtually indistinguishable from data centers, just huge warehouse like buildings next to readily available power substations. Since I have billions of startup capital, this is pretty feasible. Not only will I be mass producing diamonds, I'll be mass producing the diamond growing equipment, driving my per unit price down significantly. Better yet, my diamonds will be of a higher quality than anything De Beers can dig out of the ground.
- jljljl 12y ago
  A chat app was acquired for billions of dollars, but as far as I can see they only raised ~$58M in capital. http://www.crunchbase.com/organization/whatsapp http://www.crunchbase.com/organization/whatsapp EDIT: number was slightly off
  - bane 12y ago
    And now the investors have billions of dollars. There's also plenty of companies outside of the internet app space that raise staggering amounts of money comparatively. Mining is no different. Unless I'm independently wealthy, I'll likely need investors to execute on just about any business idea. Ultimately any real goods business requires capital to get off the ground. I'm not going to just start digging a hole in my garage and bootstrap a diamond mine that will disrupt De Beers. Are you just being purposely obtuse?
    - jljljl 12y ago
      There is really no need for the rudeness. I don't really see how your first point follows at all. The capital required to fund the first 1.5 years of WhatsApp's existence was a mere 250K. Getting it to a $14B company took only $58M in outside investment. Do you really think investing in a diamond mining company would resemble that profile at all? If you really can't see the difference between the investment risk in a mining operation to challenge a 90% marketshare conglomerate, vs an investment risk in a 50 person internet startup, I don't think there's a point in debating any further.
      - bane 12y ago
        > Do you really think investing in a diamond mining company would resemble that profile at all? So by this logic, anything that's not a high risk, high gain investment vehicle isn't worth the time? Better not tell the entire non-VC investment market that. > If you really can't see the difference between the investment risk in a mining operation to challenge a 90% marketshare conglomerate, vs an investment risk in a 50 person internet startup, I don't think there's a point in debating any further. De Beer's doesn't own 90% of the market anymore. They're vulnerable on two fronts, manufactured diamonds and diamond mines they don't own, both providing product at a lower price than they've traditionally commanded as a market monopoly. More importantly, how exactly do you think new mines and new mining companies (of virtually any kind) form exactly? According to you, they're virtually impossible and we shouldn't ever see them. But we see them all the time. Mines are investments just like anything else. But look, if you're going to just keep inflating perfectly normal business barriers that affect any kind of business into reasons why somebody shouldn't get specifically into the diamond business, then it's you who probably shouldn't get into the diamond business. Somebody else with investment capital to burn sourcing product and building a market, like every other business in history, shouldn't let you get in the way.
        jljljl 12y ago
        I didn't say new mines and mining companies are impossible. I said new diamond mining companies are probably a very tough sell, for the reasons I gave. A new mineral without a highly concentrated competitive landscape, or which is extremely plentiful in multiple countries, is probably a much better investment. Read the article. De Beers didn't lose market share to a new mining start up, they lost it because political issues caused certain partners to leave the cartel (especially the Russian and Australian mines). It was only when the cartel was severely weakened that the newer Canadian mines were able to opt to sell their diamonds independently, at which point De Beers had already fallen to 50%. Even these mines are not startups: the Diavik mine is majority owned by Rio Tinto. >>> But look, if you're going to just keep inflating perfectly normal business barriers that affect any kind of business into reasons why somebody shouldn't get specifically into the diamond business, then it's you who probably shouldn't get into the diamond business. My point is that the barriers are harder for diamond mining than for other businesses, like chat apps in 2011. Dismissing the barriers for a highly capital intensive and risky industry with a small number of major players seems reckless and makes it hard to take your points seriously. >>> Somebody else with investment capital to burn sourcing product and building a market, like every other business in history, shouldn't let you get in the way. Nobody is standing in your way. Go build your diamond company. You don't need the permission of Hacker News.

bane 12y ago

> you'd need billions of dollars in start up capital Two more points: a) Considering a chat app pulled in billions of capital, it's not like there isn't billions of capital available. Now that I have such capital in hand, it sounds like I'm pretty well situated to make this a practical idea. b) Why mine? Why not just grow? The diamonds are of better quality. Why can't I be the SpaceX of diamonds, start from first principles and build my own diamond growing tools, start mass producing 1-2 carat diamonds and dump them on the market. Set up regional diamond growing facilities each turning out thousands of diamonds a day, 24 hours a day. They'll be virtually indistinguishable from data centers, just huge warehouse like buildings next to readily available power substations. Since I have billions of startup capital, this is pretty feasible. Not only will I be mass producing diamonds, I'll be mass producing the diamond growing equipment, driving my per unit price down significantly. Better yet, my diamonds will be of a higher quality than anything De Beers can dig out of the ground.

jljljl 12y ago
A chat app was acquired for billions of dollars, but as far as I can see they only raised ~$58M in capital. http://www.crunchbase.com/organization/whatsapp http://www.crunchbase.com/organization/whatsapp EDIT: number was slightly off
- bane 12y ago
  And now the investors have billions of dollars. There's also plenty of companies outside of the internet app space that raise staggering amounts of money comparatively. Mining is no different. Unless I'm independently wealthy, I'll likely need investors to execute on just about any business idea. Ultimately any real goods business requires capital to get off the ground. I'm not going to just start digging a hole in my garage and bootstrap a diamond mine that will disrupt De Beers. Are you just being purposely obtuse?
  - jljljl 12y ago
    There is really no need for the rudeness. I don't really see how your first point follows at all. The capital required to fund the first 1.5 years of WhatsApp's existence was a mere 250K. Getting it to a $14B company took only $58M in outside investment. Do you really think investing in a diamond mining company would resemble that profile at all? If you really can't see the difference between the investment risk in a mining operation to challenge a 90% marketshare conglomerate, vs an investment risk in a 50 person internet startup, I don't think there's a point in debating any further.
    - bane 12y ago
      > Do you really think investing in a diamond mining company would resemble that profile at all? So by this logic, anything that's not a high risk, high gain investment vehicle isn't worth the time? Better not tell the entire non-VC investment market that. > If you really can't see the difference between the investment risk in a mining operation to challenge a 90% marketshare conglomerate, vs an investment risk in a 50 person internet startup, I don't think there's a point in debating any further. De Beer's doesn't own 90% of the market anymore. They're vulnerable on two fronts, manufactured diamonds and diamond mines they don't own, both providing product at a lower price than they've traditionally commanded as a market monopoly. More importantly, how exactly do you think new mines and new mining companies (of virtually any kind) form exactly? According to you, they're virtually impossible and we shouldn't ever see them. But we see them all the time. Mines are investments just like anything else. But look, if you're going to just keep inflating perfectly normal business barriers that affect any kind of business into reasons why somebody shouldn't get specifically into the diamond business, then it's you who probably shouldn't get into the diamond business. Somebody else with investment capital to burn sourcing product and building a market, like every other business in history, shouldn't let you get in the way.
      - jljljl 12y ago
        I didn't say new mines and mining companies are impossible. I said new diamond mining companies are probably a very tough sell, for the reasons I gave. A new mineral without a highly concentrated competitive landscape, or which is extremely plentiful in multiple countries, is probably a much better investment. Read the article. De Beers didn't lose market share to a new mining start up, they lost it because political issues caused certain partners to leave the cartel (especially the Russian and Australian mines). It was only when the cartel was severely weakened that the newer Canadian mines were able to opt to sell their diamonds independently, at which point De Beers had already fallen to 50%. Even these mines are not startups: the Diavik mine is majority owned by Rio Tinto. >>> But look, if you're going to just keep inflating perfectly normal business barriers that affect any kind of business into reasons why somebody shouldn't get specifically into the diamond business, then it's you who probably shouldn't get into the diamond business. My point is that the barriers are harder for diamond mining than for other businesses, like chat apps in 2011. Dismissing the barriers for a highly capital intensive and risky industry with a small number of major players seems reckless and makes it hard to take your points seriously. >>> Somebody else with investment capital to burn sourcing product and building a market, like every other business in history, shouldn't let you get in the way. Nobody is standing in your way. Go build your diamond company. You don't need the permission of Hacker News.