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"Then the world will realize how valuable what the US stood for despite its shortcomings." The West, maybe. Not if you're living in a Middle Eastern country,

by meric 12y ago

"Then the world will realize how valuable what the US stood for despite its shortcomings." The West, maybe. Not if you're living in a Middle Eastern country, with oppressive rulers kept in power by US funds, forcing the country to sell its oil resources cheaply. Not if you're living in Eastern Ukraine, where the US toppled an elected government to install a government that is hostile to your people. http://www.presstv.com/detail/2014/03/25/355978/nuke-8-million-russians-in-ukraine/ http://www.presstv.com/detail/2014/03/25/355978/nuke-8-milli... You could pretty much tell her attitude to them by the way she suggested the 8 million ethnic Russians living in Eastern Ukraine should be nuked. Not if you're living in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Iran. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RC1Mepk_Sw#t=79 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RC1Mepk_Sw#t=79 All countries where the U.S. has sought to destroy domestic, independent, public institutions if and when they arise. If you're living in an African country where the U.S. has previously tried to destabilize your government, and where China instead have offered to build infrastructure for your country, you might not be so sad that the US has lost a drone, which it was probably using for spying purposes. If the world was Panem, then U.S. is the Capitol, and its closest allies are the Capitol's adjacent districts. Of course, you're probably from the U.S., if not, then probably, U.K or Australia, or N.Z. Of course you'd have something to lose if the US will some day not be able to police the world. EDIT: What's the downvote for? A lack of citations?

xi 12y ago
> EDIT: What's the downvote for? A lack of citations? Maybe because of them? The article about Timoshenko is written by a serious antisemitic nutjob.
- user9756 12y ago
  Could you please quote the antisemitic parts?
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    It mentions the Jewish lobby and how congress is eager to receive their funds in two places, but I find it hard to equate that with 'anti-semitic nutjob'. The Jewish lobby is real enough that they warrant their own wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_lobby_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_lobby_in_the_United_Stat...
    - betterunix 12y ago
      Not all Jews are Zionists and most American Zionists are not Jewish. Stop referring to a "Jewish lobby" when you mean an "Israel lobby" or "Zionist lobby." The term "Jewish lobby" is misleading, easily misunderstood, and mildly antisemitic.
rat87 12y ago
The US did not bring down an elected government in Ukraine. It was taken down by Ukrainian protesters. While I admit that having the threat of force cause elected albeit very corrupt politicians to flee is very sketchy its a million times better then what happened in Crimea and eastern Ukraine and especially in Crimea Russia orchestrated quite a bit of it.
- meric 12y ago
  Here's a video of Victoria Nuland of the Department of State claiming U.S. has spent $5 billion since 1991 to 'build democratic institutions' in Ukraine. Take note of the sponsorship flags by Chevron and ExxonMobil in the background. Note how she uses the word 'invested'. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y0y-JUsPTU#t=448 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y0y-JUsPTU#t=448 IMO that is evidence of U.S. interference in Ukraine's political affairs. It is crazy to suggest U.S. is not involved in encouraging Ukraine's aspirations to join NATO. On one hand the U.S. supports a government installed via a coup, toppling the previous elected government, and on the other give no comments on the Kiev government sending army units to crack down on Anti-Kiev protesters. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariupol_standoff http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariupol_standoff The U.S. media calls armed men storming Pro-Russia government buildings "protesters", while armed men storming Pro-US government buildings are "separatists", "militants". I'm not for U.S. or Russia, I see the Ukraine situation for what it is, a small country whose people are being manipulated by larger ones. Russia's move into Crimea isn't even illegal, it was specified clearly in the terms of the treaty leasing the Russia naval base. It was also a defensive one. If Ukraine would join NATO, the lease for the base would terminate, and Russia will lose a naval port. Crimea was also historically Russian, the fact that Ukraine had it after Soviet Union's collapse was pure accident; the Soviet Union 'awarded' the Ukraine state with Crimea in 1954 as a meaningless proclamation, probably for domestic propaganda purposes. It was the people in Crimea who decided to join Russia. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UkraineNativeLanguagesCensus2001detailed-en.png http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UkraineNativeLanguagesCens...) U.S. (and probably all governments if given the chance) favors self-determination when it favors them (e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_Islands_sovereignty_referendum,_2013 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_Islands_sovereignty_re...), calls them illegitimate when it doesn't.
user9756 12y ago
In general avoid politics on Hacker News. Especially if you diverge from the "party line". Such truths hurt. Cf eg BugBrother's comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7795134 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7795134) (no downvotes there incidentally...) This would however all be comical if it wasn't so tragic. "It seems that dictators generally need to make enemies out of the world's democracies." The US (and Europe) has set out to antagonize not only Iran, but Russia, and China. For what reasons? "This is so the populations don't start to get ideas about why their junta's steal so much money and they don't have any freedom. "Democracy and freedom are just lies -- the westerners are degenerates which tolerate homosexuality, etc." Oh yeah, the evil easterners threatening our freedom.... So.. that the population don't get any ideas about the "elected" government's corruption (the military spending, the banks, the rich 1%, etc)? Any form of government that "we" don't like is lying about everything -- the easterners are degenerate who tolerate nothing and support terrorism! Don't waste your time. You can't help a person who has decided to hit rock bottom. They'll only bring you down with them. That's the tragedy.
- BugBrother 12y ago
  You couldn't argue against my comment directly in place, because you were scared of getting an answer? My point was that all undemocratic juntas need to have/create external enemies. That is hardly controversial. Today the democratic West seems to be preferred for the enemy role, so democratic opposition is treason. >> Any form of government that "we" don't like is lying about everything Well, you (and the juntas that can't lose elections) must be right, it is just a western conspiracy! Including those lying measurements of human/press/election/etc freedoms from Amnesty, HRW, etc! It doesn't bother you to have the same opinions as disgusting dictators? But, of course, it is all USAs fault anyway? I voted you up, for the humor. And for recommending to keep politics off HN. Edit: Seriously, thanks. Your personal insults and parody of my position (hidden in another place!) was the closest I got to a relevant reply. (If you had a real answer you would have written that, so the insults say more about you than me.) Edit 2: You even inverted my position, I never claimed "The US (and Europe) has set out to antagonize not only Iran, but Russia, and China."
growupkids 12y ago
How exactly are OPEC countries forced to sell oil cheaply? How exactly did the US topple Ukraine government? Which African countries did the US destabilize? Citations please.
- michas 12y ago
  What was both Iraq and Afghanistan wars for, if not for oil? Americans always claim that they want to cease dictatorship and build "democracy", but strangely, they only tend to do it in countries that have some natural resources in high quantities available (mostly oil). At the same time they don't even bother about democracy in most of the Africa.
jsmcgd 12y ago
One could add Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia to the list. Also most of South America.

by meric 12y ago

xi 12y ago

> EDIT: What's the downvote for? A lack of citations? Maybe because of them? The article about Timoshenko is written by a serious antisemitic nutjob.

user9756 12y ago
Could you please quote the antisemitic parts?
- jacquesm 12y ago
  It mentions the Jewish lobby and how congress is eager to receive their funds in two places, but I find it hard to equate that with 'anti-semitic nutjob'. The Jewish lobby is real enough that they warrant their own wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_lobby_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_lobby_in_the_United_Stat...
  - betterunix 12y ago
    Not all Jews are Zionists and most American Zionists are not Jewish. Stop referring to a "Jewish lobby" when you mean an "Israel lobby" or "Zionist lobby." The term "Jewish lobby" is misleading, easily misunderstood, and mildly antisemitic.

rat87 12y ago

The US did not bring down an elected government in Ukraine. It was taken down by Ukrainian protesters. While I admit that having the threat of force cause elected albeit very corrupt politicians to flee is very sketchy its a million times better then what happened in Crimea and eastern Ukraine and especially in Crimea Russia orchestrated quite a bit of it.

meric 12y ago
Here's a video of Victoria Nuland of the Department of State claiming U.S. has spent $5 billion since 1991 to 'build democratic institutions' in Ukraine. Take note of the sponsorship flags by Chevron and ExxonMobil in the background. Note how she uses the word 'invested'. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y0y-JUsPTU#t=448 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y0y-JUsPTU#t=448 IMO that is evidence of U.S. interference in Ukraine's political affairs. It is crazy to suggest U.S. is not involved in encouraging Ukraine's aspirations to join NATO. On one hand the U.S. supports a government installed via a coup, toppling the previous elected government, and on the other give no comments on the Kiev government sending army units to crack down on Anti-Kiev protesters. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariupol_standoff http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariupol_standoff The U.S. media calls armed men storming Pro-Russia government buildings "protesters", while armed men storming Pro-US government buildings are "separatists", "militants". I'm not for U.S. or Russia, I see the Ukraine situation for what it is, a small country whose people are being manipulated by larger ones. Russia's move into Crimea isn't even illegal, it was specified clearly in the terms of the treaty leasing the Russia naval base. It was also a defensive one. If Ukraine would join NATO, the lease for the base would terminate, and Russia will lose a naval port. Crimea was also historically Russian, the fact that Ukraine had it after Soviet Union's collapse was pure accident; the Soviet Union 'awarded' the Ukraine state with Crimea in 1954 as a meaningless proclamation, probably for domestic propaganda purposes. It was the people in Crimea who decided to join Russia. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UkraineNativeLanguagesCensus2001detailed-en.png http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UkraineNativeLanguagesCens...) U.S. (and probably all governments if given the chance) favors self-determination when it favors them (e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_Islands_sovereignty_referendum,_2013 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_Islands_sovereignty_re...), calls them illegitimate when it doesn't.

user9756 12y ago

In general avoid politics on Hacker News. Especially if you diverge from the "party line". Such truths hurt. Cf eg BugBrother's comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7795134 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7795134) (no downvotes there incidentally...) This would however all be comical if it wasn't so tragic. "It seems that dictators generally need to make enemies out of the world's democracies." The US (and Europe) has set out to antagonize not only Iran, but Russia, and China. For what reasons? "This is so the populations don't start to get ideas about why their junta's steal so much money and they don't have any freedom. "Democracy and freedom are just lies -- the westerners are degenerates which tolerate homosexuality, etc." Oh yeah, the evil easterners threatening our freedom.... So.. that the population don't get any ideas about the "elected" government's corruption (the military spending, the banks, the rich 1%, etc)? Any form of government that "we" don't like is lying about everything -- the easterners are degenerate who tolerate nothing and support terrorism! Don't waste your time. You can't help a person who has decided to hit rock bottom. They'll only bring you down with them. That's the tragedy.

BugBrother 12y ago
You couldn't argue against my comment directly in place, because you were scared of getting an answer? My point was that all undemocratic juntas need to have/create external enemies. That is hardly controversial. Today the democratic West seems to be preferred for the enemy role, so democratic opposition is treason. >> Any form of government that "we" don't like is lying about everything Well, you (and the juntas that can't lose elections) must be right, it is just a western conspiracy! Including those lying measurements of human/press/election/etc freedoms from Amnesty, HRW, etc! It doesn't bother you to have the same opinions as disgusting dictators? But, of course, it is all USAs fault anyway? I voted you up, for the humor. And for recommending to keep politics off HN. Edit: Seriously, thanks. Your personal insults and parody of my position (hidden in another place!) was the closest I got to a relevant reply. (If you had a real answer you would have written that, so the insults say more about you than me.) Edit 2: You even inverted my position, I never claimed "The US (and Europe) has set out to antagonize not only Iran, but Russia, and China."

growupkids 12y ago

How exactly are OPEC countries forced to sell oil cheaply? How exactly did the US topple Ukraine government? Which African countries did the US destabilize? Citations please.

michas 12y ago
What was both Iraq and Afghanistan wars for, if not for oil? Americans always claim that they want to cease dictatorship and build "democracy", but strangely, they only tend to do it in countries that have some natural resources in high quantities available (mostly oil). At the same time they don't even bother about democracy in most of the Africa.

jsmcgd 12y ago

One could add Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia to the list. Also most of South America.