3 ms·

"In short, a trade school approach is exactly what we need, as it most accurately reflects the realities of the new job market." Not sure who that "we" you're

by hsitz 12y ago

"In short, a trade school approach is exactly what we need, as it most accurately reflects the realities of the new job market." Not sure who that "we" you're referring to is. Certainly the trade-school mentality helps the economy grow. Helping populate our country with thoughtful, well-informed citizens leading desirable lives, not so much.

unclebucknasty 12y ago
>Certainly the trade-school mentality helps the economy grow. It helps people to eat. >Helping populate our country with thoughtful, well-informed citizens leading desirable lives, not so much. Is a college education at an average cost of $19K/year ($33K for private colleges) and rising the only way to become a "thoughtful, well-informed citizen"? Is it even an efficient way to achieve that goal? And it's difficult to have any kind of life, let alone a desirable one, when one cannot feed himself or provide for his basic needs. Higher education itself sends an ambiguous message. "Give us $100K+ and we'll prepare you to participate in the economy and we'll make you a well-rounded citizen". So, which is it? Because these two goals are increasingly at odds. And, how many takers do you think they'd have at $100K for the "well-rounded" bit alone? How many for the "learn an employable skill" bit? Right. So let's unbundle them and give people a choice. Look, I'm the first to agree that the manner by which our current economy assigns value and subsequently allocates rewards is terribly skewed. If it wasn't, then college would be free for everyone and we wouldn't be having this discussion. But, unless and until the glorious day comes when we are provided with basic incomes and/or we are financially rewarded for being "thoughtful and well-informed", we need to stop doing our kids (and their parents) a disservice and prepare them for the real world that they'll actually be facing on graduation day+1. This, instead of breaking their backs with debt, only to have them unable to sustain themselves.
- shanusmagnus 12y ago
  "Let's unbundle them and give people a choice." They're already unbundled, and people already have a choice -- for the trade school thing you want, there are trade schools, 2 year colleges, etc, that require no (or far fewer) of those useless classes for creating an informed citizenry; and a burgeoning explosion of online offerings that are quite good, especially for the price. And there's nothing stopping you from getting into a small liberal arts school and majoring in feminist theory, if you don't want to be tainted by practical skills of any kind. And you can find any position along that gradient, for any dollar figure. I'd say the issue isn't lack of choice; the issue is that people want contradictory things, and that the 'ambiguous message' is less a message universities are sending than a misunderstanding of what universities are really providing, which is the signaling power of their credential. The practical, no-fat skills acquisition you describe is there for the taking, if that's really what you want. If you're willing to spend the money you can have the best of both worlds at the cost of more time, which is the same as everything else in life. I don't feel that bad for people who buy a Honda Civic and wish it were a Tesla, or vice-versa. There are certainly plenty of options to get either one, and plenty of information to know which one you're getting. But if you want the Tesla, but only want to pay for the Honda? Too bad.
  - unclebucknasty 12y ago
    I had a feeling someone would key on that "unbundle" phrase! Two year schools and a few online courses aren't yet respected with regard to training in certain fields. In such fields (including software dev, for the most part), employers are generally looking for a bachelor's and, frequently, one in a related field. So, it's not just the university name, but the actual degree. >the issue is that people want contradictory things Not really. College is increasingly almost purely an economic choice, and that's the change that people looking from the outside fail to recognize. There was once a time when a person could obtain a bachelor's degree--in virtually any field--and be employable. Any additional personal growth or well-roundedness gained during their stint was a bonus that came at little-to-no cost. They'd get a job with their Women's Studies degree and thus recoup their investment. Not so much now. The wrong degree hurts and can sideline a prospect indefinitely. Likewise, even with the right degree, paying money for ancillary courses that prolong one's tenure hurts. There is, of course, the opportunity cost of an additional 1.5 years or so studying ancillary topics vs. being employed, as well as the actual cost of spending additonal time at ever more expensive universities. Meantime, employers increasingly just don't care. So, if there is any contradiction, it's between universities and employers. Universities continue to require significant amounts of irrelevant coursework to obtain the coveted bachelor's degree, over which they have a "cornered market". Meanwhile, employers just want the core skills for which they are hiring. Stuck in the middle are the students, who ultimately need to take their place in the economy, irrespective of whatever other personal growth they may desire. Edit: It's also possible (likely?) that employers will eventually look to other sources (beyond a bachelor's) at some point. This might include 2-year schools that you mentioned and other innovative (yet to be popularized) models. However, what I am describing above is the current reality. But, if and when this happens, you can bet your last money that universities will "adapt" fast enough to make your head spin, as they will recognize it as the existential threat to them that it is. Offerings of 2.5 year bachelor's degrees may then become commonplace.
    - hga 12y ago
      "There was once a time when a person could obtain a bachelor's degree--in virtually any field--and be employable." As you make a nod to later, there was also once a time when a student could work their way through a university or college degree (and that includes not piling up significant debt). This was once true of MIT, let alone public schools. That is now only a nostalgic memory, and with a rate of inflation that comfortably outstrips the CPI, the primacy of economic concerns cannot be avoided.
andrewflnr 12y ago
Having sat through some courses designed to instill "thoughtfulness", and seen people leave being just as stupid as they were before, I don't think it can be taught, at least not in a class. You have to want to challenge your own thinking, and if you already do then you probably don't need a class. Worse yet if they stay stupid but gain enough vocabulary to make their stupidity sound wise. Regardless, vocabulary is the best that can be expected from these courses.

by hsitz 12y ago

unclebucknasty 12y ago

>Certainly the trade-school mentality helps the economy grow. It helps people to eat. >Helping populate our country with thoughtful, well-informed citizens leading desirable lives, not so much. Is a college education at an average cost of $19K/year ($33K for private colleges) and rising the only way to become a "thoughtful, well-informed citizen"? Is it even an efficient way to achieve that goal? And it's difficult to have any kind of life, let alone a desirable one, when one cannot feed himself or provide for his basic needs. Higher education itself sends an ambiguous message. "Give us $100K+ and we'll prepare you to participate in the economy and we'll make you a well-rounded citizen". So, which is it? Because these two goals are increasingly at odds. And, how many takers do you think they'd have at $100K for the "well-rounded" bit alone? How many for the "learn an employable skill" bit? Right. So let's unbundle them and give people a choice. Look, I'm the first to agree that the manner by which our current economy assigns value and subsequently allocates rewards is terribly skewed. If it wasn't, then college would be free for everyone and we wouldn't be having this discussion. But, unless and until the glorious day comes when we are provided with basic incomes and/or we are financially rewarded for being "thoughtful and well-informed", we need to stop doing our kids (and their parents) a disservice and prepare them for the real world that they'll actually be facing on graduation day+1. This, instead of breaking their backs with debt, only to have them unable to sustain themselves.

shanusmagnus 12y ago
"Let's unbundle them and give people a choice." They're already unbundled, and people already have a choice -- for the trade school thing you want, there are trade schools, 2 year colleges, etc, that require no (or far fewer) of those useless classes for creating an informed citizenry; and a burgeoning explosion of online offerings that are quite good, especially for the price. And there's nothing stopping you from getting into a small liberal arts school and majoring in feminist theory, if you don't want to be tainted by practical skills of any kind. And you can find any position along that gradient, for any dollar figure. I'd say the issue isn't lack of choice; the issue is that people want contradictory things, and that the 'ambiguous message' is less a message universities are sending than a misunderstanding of what universities are really providing, which is the signaling power of their credential. The practical, no-fat skills acquisition you describe is there for the taking, if that's really what you want. If you're willing to spend the money you can have the best of both worlds at the cost of more time, which is the same as everything else in life. I don't feel that bad for people who buy a Honda Civic and wish it were a Tesla, or vice-versa. There are certainly plenty of options to get either one, and plenty of information to know which one you're getting. But if you want the Tesla, but only want to pay for the Honda? Too bad.
- unclebucknasty 12y ago
  I had a feeling someone would key on that "unbundle" phrase! Two year schools and a few online courses aren't yet respected with regard to training in certain fields. In such fields (including software dev, for the most part), employers are generally looking for a bachelor's and, frequently, one in a related field. So, it's not just the university name, but the actual degree. >the issue is that people want contradictory things Not really. College is increasingly almost purely an economic choice, and that's the change that people looking from the outside fail to recognize. There was once a time when a person could obtain a bachelor's degree--in virtually any field--and be employable. Any additional personal growth or well-roundedness gained during their stint was a bonus that came at little-to-no cost. They'd get a job with their Women's Studies degree and thus recoup their investment. Not so much now. The wrong degree hurts and can sideline a prospect indefinitely. Likewise, even with the right degree, paying money for ancillary courses that prolong one's tenure hurts. There is, of course, the opportunity cost of an additional 1.5 years or so studying ancillary topics vs. being employed, as well as the actual cost of spending additonal time at ever more expensive universities. Meantime, employers increasingly just don't care. So, if there is any contradiction, it's between universities and employers. Universities continue to require significant amounts of irrelevant coursework to obtain the coveted bachelor's degree, over which they have a "cornered market". Meanwhile, employers just want the core skills for which they are hiring. Stuck in the middle are the students, who ultimately need to take their place in the economy, irrespective of whatever other personal growth they may desire. Edit: It's also possible (likely?) that employers will eventually look to other sources (beyond a bachelor's) at some point. This might include 2-year schools that you mentioned and other innovative (yet to be popularized) models. However, what I am describing above is the current reality. But, if and when this happens, you can bet your last money that universities will "adapt" fast enough to make your head spin, as they will recognize it as the existential threat to them that it is. Offerings of 2.5 year bachelor's degrees may then become commonplace.
  - hga 12y ago
    "There was once a time when a person could obtain a bachelor's degree--in virtually any field--and be employable." As you make a nod to later, there was also once a time when a student could work their way through a university or college degree (and that includes not piling up significant debt). This was once true of MIT, let alone public schools. That is now only a nostalgic memory, and with a rate of inflation that comfortably outstrips the CPI, the primacy of economic concerns cannot be avoided.

andrewflnr 12y ago

Having sat through some courses designed to instill "thoughtfulness", and seen people leave being just as stupid as they were before, I don't think it can be taught, at least not in a class. You have to want to challenge your own thinking, and if you already do then you probably don't need a class. Worse yet if they stay stupid but gain enough vocabulary to make their stupidity sound wise. Regardless, vocabulary is the best that can be expected from these courses.