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good overview. Hopefully, the FCC will decide that the iPhone belongs to the user once its purchased and not Apple. If the user decides to change the user exp

good overview. Hopefully, the FCC will decide that the iPhone belongs to the user once its purchased and not Apple. If the user decides to change the user experience or even brick their device, that's their choice.

ubernostrum 17y ago
It already is the user's choice. What you seem to want is for it to become Apple's responsibility to provide support for anything a user wants to do, which is another thing entirely.
- raganwald 17y ago
  Agreed. I don't recall signing something saying I can't open up my iPhone and install Linux on it.
  - jhancock 17y ago
    There is outstanding ambiguity in DMCA and related laws which are used to great effect by companies like Apple. Is it illegal to hack your iPhone? I think not, but one reason I believe Apple has not sued over this yet is they get benefit from not having a clear ruling on the issue.
    - GHFigs 17y ago
      What ambiguity? It isn't illegal to hack your phone. It is illegal to modify and distribute someone else's copyrighted software to do so, though, and that is the only thing that Apple has taken any legal action against.
      - eli 17y ago
        Dead wrong. No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title. The DMCA makes it illegal to circumvent DRM with very few exceptions. It doesn't matter if it's for your own personal use. Doesn't even matter if you actually pirate any software. Simply breaking the locks is illegal. In fact, it makes it illegal to simply create or traffic tools that could be used to circumvent DRM (i.e. modchips, but that could describe a lot of tools)
        jhancock 17y ago
        yep, thanks. And when I refereed to ambiguity, I was being very kind to the laws and industry that support these aspects of the DMCA. I think if our courts upheld the DMCA to throw a person in jail for hacking their own iPhone to get around Apple's App Store we would see a revolt (against the products and the laws). So they don't go after it as they want the threat to remain.
        GHFigs 17y ago
        I didn't say anything about DRM. Why do you need to break DRM to hack a phone? To access and modify the copyrighted contents. i.e. "work protected under this title". This was covered to death in the last round of DMCA rulemaking. The fact is that you don't have the right to infringe on Apple's copyright, but all existing jailbreak software does exactly that. If you were to hack your phone without infringing on Apple's copyright, they wouldn't have a legal leg to stand on, because as I said, hacking your phone is not illegal.
    - eli 17y ago
      EFF is pushing the Copyright Office to issue an exemption for jailbreaking iPhones and extend the exemption for breaking a SIM lock. (One good reason to send them some money.) As it stands now, it probably is illegal to jailbreak a phone. Apple certainly asserts that it is.
    - raganwald 17y ago
      > There is outstanding ambiguity in DMCA and related laws Sorry, I'm a Canadian. That being said, (a) You folks have this crazy idea that your laws reach around the world so that if someone breaks, say, the password protection for a document format in Russia he should be arrested when he sets foot on American soil, and (b) You folks have been putting a LOT of pressure on our government to bring our laws into compliance with whatever your media companies desire.
- jhancock 17y ago
  uh no, I did not say anything of the sort. Go read any software license over the last 30 years. Almost all say they offer no warranty. If Apple has a bug in their core software, are they liable for support or loss of data? I'm sure they declare they do not: use at your own risk!!! Bottom line is its my device, I can install whatever software I please and Apple restricting downloads from their own store, "pay our 30% rake", is bullshit. I hope the FCC tears them a new one.
  - ubernostrum 17y ago
    "Apple restricting downloads from their own store, "pay our 30% rake", is bullshit." So you feel you have a right to force Apple to distribute your software, collect payments for it and pass them on to you, and that they should have no say in whether to provide that service or charge you for it? Again: you have the right to do what you please. But that doesn't extend to forcing Apple to offer you services they don't want to offer.
    - chaosprophet 17y ago
      I agree with jhancock. I do not want to force Apple into distributing my software. I just want Apple to stop actively preventing me from distributing my software (through my own resources), which is what it is doing with the App store.
      - brisance 17y ago
        If you feel so strongly about it then develop a web app. At least then you won't be locked into the platform and will have a wider audience.
    - jhancock 17y ago
      If Apple locked down desktop OS X in the same way it has locked down the iPhone, I would switch to desktop linux in a heartbeat. I did not say Apple should distribute 3rd party software. I said they were restricting downloads. They have become the gatekeeper to software installs on the iPhone. You have to illegally hack your device to get around this.

ubernostrum 17y ago

It already is the user's choice. What you seem to want is for it to become Apple's responsibility to provide support for anything a user wants to do, which is another thing entirely.

raganwald 17y ago
Agreed. I don't recall signing something saying I can't open up my iPhone and install Linux on it.
- jhancock 17y ago
  There is outstanding ambiguity in DMCA and related laws which are used to great effect by companies like Apple. Is it illegal to hack your iPhone? I think not, but one reason I believe Apple has not sued over this yet is they get benefit from not having a clear ruling on the issue.
  - GHFigs 17y ago
    What ambiguity? It isn't illegal to hack your phone. It is illegal to modify and distribute someone else's copyrighted software to do so, though, and that is the only thing that Apple has taken any legal action against.
    - eli 17y ago
      Dead wrong. No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title. The DMCA makes it illegal to circumvent DRM with very few exceptions. It doesn't matter if it's for your own personal use. Doesn't even matter if you actually pirate any software. Simply breaking the locks is illegal. In fact, it makes it illegal to simply create or traffic tools that could be used to circumvent DRM (i.e. modchips, but that could describe a lot of tools)
      - jhancock 17y ago
        yep, thanks. And when I refereed to ambiguity, I was being very kind to the laws and industry that support these aspects of the DMCA. I think if our courts upheld the DMCA to throw a person in jail for hacking their own iPhone to get around Apple's App Store we would see a revolt (against the products and the laws). So they don't go after it as they want the threat to remain.
      - GHFigs 17y ago
        I didn't say anything about DRM. Why do you need to break DRM to hack a phone? To access and modify the copyrighted contents. i.e. "work protected under this title". This was covered to death in the last round of DMCA rulemaking. The fact is that you don't have the right to infringe on Apple's copyright, but all existing jailbreak software does exactly that. If you were to hack your phone without infringing on Apple's copyright, they wouldn't have a legal leg to stand on, because as I said, hacking your phone is not illegal.
  - eli 17y ago
    EFF is pushing the Copyright Office to issue an exemption for jailbreaking iPhones and extend the exemption for breaking a SIM lock. (One good reason to send them some money.) As it stands now, it probably is illegal to jailbreak a phone. Apple certainly asserts that it is.
  - raganwald 17y ago
    > There is outstanding ambiguity in DMCA and related laws Sorry, I'm a Canadian. That being said, (a) You folks have this crazy idea that your laws reach around the world so that if someone breaks, say, the password protection for a document format in Russia he should be arrested when he sets foot on American soil, and (b) You folks have been putting a LOT of pressure on our government to bring our laws into compliance with whatever your media companies desire.
jhancock 17y ago
uh no, I did not say anything of the sort. Go read any software license over the last 30 years. Almost all say they offer no warranty. If Apple has a bug in their core software, are they liable for support or loss of data? I'm sure they declare they do not: use at your own risk!!! Bottom line is its my device, I can install whatever software I please and Apple restricting downloads from their own store, "pay our 30% rake", is bullshit. I hope the FCC tears them a new one.
- ubernostrum 17y ago
  "Apple restricting downloads from their own store, "pay our 30% rake", is bullshit." So you feel you have a right to force Apple to distribute your software, collect payments for it and pass them on to you, and that they should have no say in whether to provide that service or charge you for it? Again: you have the right to do what you please. But that doesn't extend to forcing Apple to offer you services they don't want to offer.
  - chaosprophet 17y ago
    I agree with jhancock. I do not want to force Apple into distributing my software. I just want Apple to stop actively preventing me from distributing my software (through my own resources), which is what it is doing with the App store.
    - brisance 17y ago
      If you feel so strongly about it then develop a web app. At least then you won't be locked into the platform and will have a wider audience.
  - jhancock 17y ago
    If Apple locked down desktop OS X in the same way it has locked down the iPhone, I would switch to desktop linux in a heartbeat. I did not say Apple should distribute 3rd party software. I said they were restricting downloads. They have become the gatekeeper to software installs on the iPhone. You have to illegally hack your device to get around this.