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> And that's a hero? Yeah, it is.

by maratd 12y ago

coldtea 12y ago
Well, if that's a hero to some people, they've been watching too many Hollywood movies. An assassination is an assassination. That in modern western states we have managed to open the Overton Window so wide open that people consider that (and torture) as heroism, is a despicable sign of the times.
- pavelrub 12y ago
  Assassinations and Kidnappings were an obvious part of military operations since even before Sun Tzu wrote about it in 500BC. It is only in recent times, when the majority of people in the western world can spend their entire lives musing about what's right and wrong while sitting on their couch, drinking beer and eating ice-cream, that suddenly it becomes debatable whether killing bad people is wrong or not.
  - coldtea 12y ago
    >Assassinations and Kidnappings were an obvious part of military operations since even before Sun Tzu wrote about it in 500BC. They still weren't considered heroes, and most peoples with actual histories and traditions of war and such don't consider such behavior heroic. >It is only in recent times, when the majority of people in the western world can spend their entire lives musing about what's right and wrong while sitting on their couch, drinking beer and eating ice-cream, that suddenly it becomes debatable whether killing bad people is wrong or not. A, the "you can't handle the truth" defense. Unfortunately, I'm not from the little cushy "western world", in fact we have a huge death toll in various wars in the 20th century. So it's not just "couch potatoes musing about right and wrong" that consider killing bad people wrong. Morals is not some kind of luxury. People have had them even in the worst combat situations. Even people in the frontlines can and do have ethics. If anything it's the couch potatoes and the heavily armed nations that don't sacrifice much and see war as fun and/or a videogame that put such moral issues aside.
Shinkei 12y ago
We really don't know what specific missions someone was involved in during their time in a special forces unit, but I tend to think negatively of Israel's kidnappings after this eggregious example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Vanunu http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Vanunu Imagine if we had done this to Snowden? Would those special forces men necessarily be heros for following orders?
- pavelrub 12y ago
  The fact that you perceive Vanunu as a positive figure is a matter of your personal political views. I'm sure that Al-qaeda members also don't consider SEALs to be heroes. In Israel Vanunu is considered by most to be a traitor, and he has obviously violated Israeli laws. But the bigger point is that the people doing those "kidnappings" don't choose their missions. Their democratically elected leaders do it for them. What makes them heroes is that they choose to risk their lives for their country.
  - Shinkei 12y ago
    It's a great point about their leaders choosing their mission and their risking their lives for country--I agree completely. However, there are situations where even a soldier must use their conscience. I mean I hate to pull the "Nazi card" but in reality, those people could be tacitly called heroes under the same nationalist banner. This is the danger with Israel. Israel is a great country with a lot of good people, but I personally disagree with their mandatory draft, status as a religious state and their disrespect of the sovereignty of other nations. No country has clean hands, but we cannot compare 'bad actions' side-by-side... we should consider them on a case-by-case basis based on the facts we know. In the case of Vanunu, he is a conscientious objector in a sense and none of the information he divulged materially endanged Israelis more than Private Manning's information. The difference of course is that he was residing outside the country when he committed his crime and he was not a soldier, which entitles him to civilian justice. However, Israel bypassed these considerations and literally kidnapped him in another country's territory. And we haven't even begun to discuss the implications of their nuclear proliferation in spite of the worldwide ban on such activities... they are literally the only country in the world who are getting a free pass on this issue because US foreign aid would be have to be statutorily denied. Don't misunderstand, I am not arguing the merits of their case... I see the principle issue as the kidnapping of a person in a foreign government's territory. I know the US likes to take liberties with this (such as the case of Bin Laden), but that is something they could be judged on as well... I am speaking of Israel's case specifically.

> And that's a hero? Yeah, it is.

by maratd 12y ago

> And that's a hero? Yeah, it is.

Well, if that's a hero to some people, they've been watching too many Hollywood movies. An assassination is an assassination. That in modern western states we have managed to open the Overton Window so wide open that people consider that (and torture) as heroism, is a despicable sign of the times.

pavelrub 12y ago
Assassinations and Kidnappings were an obvious part of military operations since even before Sun Tzu wrote about it in 500BC. It is only in recent times, when the majority of people in the western world can spend their entire lives musing about what's right and wrong while sitting on their couch, drinking beer and eating ice-cream, that suddenly it becomes debatable whether killing bad people is wrong or not.
- coldtea 12y ago
  >Assassinations and Kidnappings were an obvious part of military operations since even before Sun Tzu wrote about it in 500BC. They still weren't considered heroes, and most peoples with actual histories and traditions of war and such don't consider such behavior heroic. >It is only in recent times, when the majority of people in the western world can spend their entire lives musing about what's right and wrong while sitting on their couch, drinking beer and eating ice-cream, that suddenly it becomes debatable whether killing bad people is wrong or not. A, the "you can't handle the truth" defense. Unfortunately, I'm not from the little cushy "western world", in fact we have a huge death toll in various wars in the 20th century. So it's not just "couch potatoes musing about right and wrong" that consider killing bad people wrong. Morals is not some kind of luxury. People have had them even in the worst combat situations. Even people in the frontlines can and do have ethics. If anything it's the couch potatoes and the heavily armed nations that don't sacrifice much and see war as fun and/or a videogame that put such moral issues aside.

Shinkei 12y ago

We really don't know what specific missions someone was involved in during their time in a special forces unit, but I tend to think negatively of Israel's kidnappings after this eggregious example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Vanunu http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Vanunu Imagine if we had done this to Snowden? Would those special forces men necessarily be heros for following orders?

pavelrub 12y ago
The fact that you perceive Vanunu as a positive figure is a matter of your personal political views. I'm sure that Al-qaeda members also don't consider SEALs to be heroes. In Israel Vanunu is considered by most to be a traitor, and he has obviously violated Israeli laws. But the bigger point is that the people doing those "kidnappings" don't choose their missions. Their democratically elected leaders do it for them. What makes them heroes is that they choose to risk their lives for their country.
- Shinkei 12y ago
  It's a great point about their leaders choosing their mission and their risking their lives for country--I agree completely. However, there are situations where even a soldier must use their conscience. I mean I hate to pull the "Nazi card" but in reality, those people could be tacitly called heroes under the same nationalist banner. This is the danger with Israel. Israel is a great country with a lot of good people, but I personally disagree with their mandatory draft, status as a religious state and their disrespect of the sovereignty of other nations. No country has clean hands, but we cannot compare 'bad actions' side-by-side... we should consider them on a case-by-case basis based on the facts we know. In the case of Vanunu, he is a conscientious objector in a sense and none of the information he divulged materially endanged Israelis more than Private Manning's information. The difference of course is that he was residing outside the country when he committed his crime and he was not a soldier, which entitles him to civilian justice. However, Israel bypassed these considerations and literally kidnapped him in another country's territory. And we haven't even begun to discuss the implications of their nuclear proliferation in spite of the worldwide ban on such activities... they are literally the only country in the world who are getting a free pass on this issue because US foreign aid would be have to be statutorily denied. Don't misunderstand, I am not arguing the merits of their case... I see the principle issue as the kidnapping of a person in a foreign government's territory. I know the US likes to take liberties with this (such as the case of Bin Laden), but that is something they could be judged on as well... I am speaking of Israel's case specifically.