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Would you say that the Navy Seals who risked their lives and captured Bin Laden are not also heroes?

by davidwihl 12y ago

ForHackernews 12y ago
Captured? I thought they killed him and dumped his body out of an airplane.
- wil421 12y ago
  It was a boat. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2011/05/bin_laden_sleeps_with_the_fishes.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/20...
- knowaveragejoe 12y ago
  No, he was dumped overboard several days after he was killed in the raid and his body interred on a Navy vessel.
  - Crito 12y ago
    The burial at sea was within 24 hours of his death, I believe in accordance to his religious customs. That's the official story according to wikipedia anyway.
    - coldtea 12y ago
      Sounds very fishy though. Suddenly a "respect to his religious customs" -- and without anyone seeing the body. Not saying that it wasn't him -- but could have been torture of what have you involved which they didn't want shown. Or they didn't want him to have a public trial.
      - Crito 12y ago
        I think the idea, officially, was more in lines of "we're going to pay lip service to his religious customs because we don't want to inflame moderates who care about that sort of thing", but yeah. It makes sense to me that they would do it that way, but it certainly leaves open the possibility that everything was not on the level (which I consider plausible, but not not necessarily probable).
DominikR 12y ago
Yes of course, as long as their mission was not to outright assassinate him no matter what. Assassinations and Kidnappings are just crimes to me, I can't believe we are even having this discussion.
- happyscrappy 12y ago
  They would have loved to take Bin Laden alive, it would be the ultimate humiliation for him.
  - DominikR 12y ago
    I'm not disputing that they tried to capture him alive.
- pavelrub 12y ago
  So you think kidnappings are a crime, but you are okay with forcefully capturing bad guys? Whats your definition of "kidnapping"? Concerning assassinations, what exactly are you opposed to? Are you against kill-or-capture manhunts for known terrorists? Are you against killing high-value targets as part of achieving a military goal, or are you against killing in a war in general? Would you oppose the failed British WW2 plan to assassinate Erwin Rommel, or the plan to assassinate Hitler? How about kidnapping them? Or is it simply the wording of "assassination and kidnapping" that you are against? Is it ok if we call it "killing and capturing" instead? Honestly I don't know what exactly you "can't believe". You have to be extremely naive to be categorically opposed to "Assassinations and Kidnappings", whatever that even means.
coldtea 12y ago
Well, not that much. A mission of men armed to the teath, invading some BS hideaway in the middle of nowhere, with helicopters, ultra-modern technology and support from their base. Not exactly A-level hero stuff.
- davidwihl 12y ago
  So going deep into a hostile territory, at night, near a foreign military compound, using unproven equipment with little fuel reserves against a dangerous, armed a forsworn enemy is not heroic? I'd like to see your definition of A-level hero.
  - ForHackernews 12y ago
    That's an interesting question: http://www.radiolab.org/story/104009-i-need-a-hero/ http://www.radiolab.org/story/104009-i-need-a-hero/ http://www.npr.org/2011/03/10/134387637/heroic-acts-to-protect-the-word-hero http://www.npr.org/2011/03/10/134387637/heroic-acts-to-prote... I think to be truly heroic, an action has to involve putting yourself in harm's way selflessly, to save somebody else. By that standard, killing your enemy--who's already got it in for you--isn't heroic, it's just strongly motivated self-interest. Even moreso if it's literally your job and you're being paid to do it. I would say the members of Seal Team Six are brave, courageous warriors, but they aren't necessarily heroes.
  - coldtea 12y ago
    All soldiers go into "hostile territory -- often at night. Not all are heroes, unless we stretch the definition much. And I seriously doubt the "unproven equipment" (or the "little fuel reserves"). It was a mission with a bunch of (armed, I give you that) guys in a hideaway against an elite team from a superpower. >I'd like to see your definition of A-level hero. Well, the people who got off the boats in Normandy are A-level heroes. Or people like the Red Baron. Or those that went on their own volition to fight for the liberty of another people in a foreign country, like 1936 Spain, with sparse guns and makeshift camps against a properly armed fascist regime with foreign state support. If I'm allowed a movie metaphor, a hero is more "Wild Bunch" or "The Magnificent Seven" than some kind of elite calvary, charging in armed to the teath and killing everything in sight.

Would you say that the Navy Seals who risked their lives and captured Bin Laden are not also heroes?

ForHackernews 12y ago

Captured? I thought they killed him and dumped his body out of an airplane.

wil421 12y ago
It was a boat. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2011/05/bin_laden_sleeps_with_the_fishes.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/20...
knowaveragejoe 12y ago
No, he was dumped overboard several days after he was killed in the raid and his body interred on a Navy vessel.
- Crito 12y ago
  The burial at sea was within 24 hours of his death, I believe in accordance to his religious customs. That's the official story according to wikipedia anyway.
  - coldtea 12y ago
    Sounds very fishy though. Suddenly a "respect to his religious customs" -- and without anyone seeing the body. Not saying that it wasn't him -- but could have been torture of what have you involved which they didn't want shown. Or they didn't want him to have a public trial.
    - Crito 12y ago
      I think the idea, officially, was more in lines of "we're going to pay lip service to his religious customs because we don't want to inflame moderates who care about that sort of thing", but yeah. It makes sense to me that they would do it that way, but it certainly leaves open the possibility that everything was not on the level (which I consider plausible, but not not necessarily probable).

DominikR 12y ago

Yes of course, as long as their mission was not to outright assassinate him no matter what. Assassinations and Kidnappings are just crimes to me, I can't believe we are even having this discussion.

happyscrappy 12y ago
They would have loved to take Bin Laden alive, it would be the ultimate humiliation for him.
- DominikR 12y ago
  I'm not disputing that they tried to capture him alive.
pavelrub 12y ago
So you think kidnappings are a crime, but you are okay with forcefully capturing bad guys? Whats your definition of "kidnapping"? Concerning assassinations, what exactly are you opposed to? Are you against kill-or-capture manhunts for known terrorists? Are you against killing high-value targets as part of achieving a military goal, or are you against killing in a war in general? Would you oppose the failed British WW2 plan to assassinate Erwin Rommel, or the plan to assassinate Hitler? How about kidnapping them? Or is it simply the wording of "assassination and kidnapping" that you are against? Is it ok if we call it "killing and capturing" instead? Honestly I don't know what exactly you "can't believe". You have to be extremely naive to be categorically opposed to "Assassinations and Kidnappings", whatever that even means.

coldtea 12y ago

Well, not that much. A mission of men armed to the teath, invading some BS hideaway in the middle of nowhere, with helicopters, ultra-modern technology and support from their base. Not exactly A-level hero stuff.

davidwihl 12y ago
So going deep into a hostile territory, at night, near a foreign military compound, using unproven equipment with little fuel reserves against a dangerous, armed a forsworn enemy is not heroic? I'd like to see your definition of A-level hero.
- ForHackernews 12y ago
  That's an interesting question: http://www.radiolab.org/story/104009-i-need-a-hero/ http://www.radiolab.org/story/104009-i-need-a-hero/ http://www.npr.org/2011/03/10/134387637/heroic-acts-to-protect-the-word-hero http://www.npr.org/2011/03/10/134387637/heroic-acts-to-prote... I think to be truly heroic, an action has to involve putting yourself in harm's way selflessly, to save somebody else. By that standard, killing your enemy--who's already got it in for you--isn't heroic, it's just strongly motivated self-interest. Even moreso if it's literally your job and you're being paid to do it. I would say the members of Seal Team Six are brave, courageous warriors, but they aren't necessarily heroes.
- coldtea 12y ago
  All soldiers go into "hostile territory -- often at night. Not all are heroes, unless we stretch the definition much. And I seriously doubt the "unproven equipment" (or the "little fuel reserves"). It was a mission with a bunch of (armed, I give you that) guys in a hideaway against an elite team from a superpower. >I'd like to see your definition of A-level hero. Well, the people who got off the boats in Normandy are A-level heroes. Or people like the Red Baron. Or those that went on their own volition to fight for the liberty of another people in a foreign country, like 1936 Spain, with sparse guns and makeshift camps against a properly armed fascist regime with foreign state support. If I'm allowed a movie metaphor, a hero is more "Wild Bunch" or "The Magnificent Seven" than some kind of elite calvary, charging in armed to the teath and killing everything in sight.