4 ms·

You won't see most of these incidents, because harassers do it when there are few witnesses. Ask your female colleagues for their stories. They all have them.

by epeus 12y ago

You won't see most of these incidents, because harassers do it when there are few witnesses. Ask your female colleagues for their stories. They all have them. So how does this fit with your "Most of the engineers I know in tech are decent, upstanding guys." - it fits perfectly. Clearly you know some who aren't decent. It only takes one to harass, and he can harass a large number of women; in fact the pattern is commonly to try it on with every woman, but in a way that leaves it as he said/she said. This is why "not all men do this" is such a weak-minded response. Don't let it slide. Your second guessing of women in your first point, and your "too easily" in the last indicate the problem too. Women who report harassment often get laid off or managed out afterwards, even when they have got the harasser fired. It is a very high risk thing for them to do, and your "not all men" attitude is a key way that harassers are sheltered.

nimbupani 12y ago
I am one of the contributors to the parent article. We mention a whole slew of 'what happens when you report harassment' incidents: - http://www.theverge.com/2013/9/12/4693710/the-end-of-kindness-weev-and-the-cult-of-the-angry-young-man http://www.theverge.com/2013/9/12/4693710/the-end-of-kindnes... - http://archive.today/20130110113908/jolieodell.wordpress.com/2010/03/16/why-sxsw-sucks/%23comment-1391 http://archive.today/20130110113908/jolieodell.wordpress.com... - http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/705/ http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/705/ - https://medium.com/@geeekcore1/d96f431f4e8e https://medium.com/@geeekcore1/d96f431f4e8e - http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=5698 http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=5698 - http://www.feministfrequency.com/2012/07/image-based-harassment-and-visual-misogyny/ http://www.feministfrequency.com/2012/07/image-based-harassm... - http://kateharding.net/2007/04/14/on-being-a-no-name-blogger-using-her-real-name/ http://kateharding.net/2007/04/14/on-being-a-no-name-blogger... - http://www.buzzfeed.com/rachelzarrell/blogger-writes-about-being-called-a-whore-scientific-america http://www.buzzfeed.com/rachelzarrell/blogger-writes-about-b... - http://www.feministfrequency.com/2012/07/image-based-harassment-and-visual-misogyny/ http://www.feministfrequency.com/2012/07/image-based-harassm... - https://medium.com/@geeekcore1/d96f431f4e8e https://medium.com/@geeekcore1/d96f431f4e8e - http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/705/ http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/705/ - http://www.theverge.com/2013/9/12/4693710/the-end-of-kindness-weev-and-the-cult-of-the-angry-young-man http://www.theverge.com/2013/9/12/4693710/the-end-of-kindnes... I also want to mention that we were super scared of publishing our individual experiences for this exact fear and questioning of our lived experience.
- optimusclimb 12y ago
  Thanks for the links. A question - Do you think (or have any information) on if this is particularly worse in tech, than in other industries?
  - nimbupani 12y ago
    I worked for less than 5 months in a non-tech industry (and in a female-majority workplace) to form any opinion on that.
  - danilocampos 12y ago
    Why does this even remotely matter? We're in tech. This is our home. Let's clean it up.
  - optimusclimb 12y ago
    @danilocampos - I think it matters for getting to a solution. If there's something inherent in tech, or its male work force that makes the problem worse, then knowing that might help get at the root of the problem a little faster.
    - beat 12y ago
      We already understand the roots of the problem quite well... comparing to other industries won't make much difference. 1. Male-dominated environment, women are a significant minority. 2. Inexcusable tolerance of sexist behavior - not calling it out when we see it. 3. "Why are you blaming me? I'm not one of those guys. Men might listen to you if you'd just stop the blanket accusations." (extra credit: count how many comments on this thread can be reduced to that sentiment.)
      - mreiland 12y ago
        it should be noted that pointing out #3 doesn't make it an invalid point, and it certainly has nothing to do with why the issue exists in the first place.
hkmurakami 12y ago
I feel strongly that we shouldn't allow ourselves to forget about the "death by a thousand cuts" aspect either. Even the "decent, upstanding guys" (a cohort that we are presumably a part of) are most likely responsible for a papercut or two (I certainly am). And these papercuts are just as profound a barrier in impeding progress in this area than the readily noticeable offenses, in my opinion.
rjknight 12y ago
> "not all men" attitude is a key way that harassers are sheltered. I'm not sure that this makes sense. Saying that someone's behaviour is unusual - not typical of most men - does not sound like sheltering them. Most men don't harass women, ergo the men that do are a minority whose views and behaviour are out of step with their peers. I think we need to say this more.
- detcader 12y ago
  It makes sense, it is just nuanced. Try: http://www.newstatesman.com/2013/08/laurie-penny/men-sexism http://www.newstatesman.com/2013/08/laurie-penny/men-sexism

by epeus 12y ago

nimbupani 12y ago

I am one of the contributors to the parent article. We mention a whole slew of 'what happens when you report harassment' incidents: - http://www.theverge.com/2013/9/12/4693710/the-end-of-kindness-weev-and-the-cult-of-the-angry-young-man http://www.theverge.com/2013/9/12/4693710/the-end-of-kindnes... - http://archive.today/20130110113908/jolieodell.wordpress.com/2010/03/16/why-sxsw-sucks/%23comment-1391 http://archive.today/20130110113908/jolieodell.wordpress.com... - http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/705/ http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/705/ - https://medium.com/@geeekcore1/d96f431f4e8e https://medium.com/@geeekcore1/d96f431f4e8e - http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=5698 http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=5698 - http://www.feministfrequency.com/2012/07/image-based-harassment-and-visual-misogyny/ http://www.feministfrequency.com/2012/07/image-based-harassm... - http://kateharding.net/2007/04/14/on-being-a-no-name-blogger-using-her-real-name/ http://kateharding.net/2007/04/14/on-being-a-no-name-blogger... - http://www.buzzfeed.com/rachelzarrell/blogger-writes-about-being-called-a-whore-scientific-america http://www.buzzfeed.com/rachelzarrell/blogger-writes-about-b... - http://www.feministfrequency.com/2012/07/image-based-harassment-and-visual-misogyny/ http://www.feministfrequency.com/2012/07/image-based-harassm... - https://medium.com/@geeekcore1/d96f431f4e8e https://medium.com/@geeekcore1/d96f431f4e8e - http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/705/ http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/705/ - http://www.theverge.com/2013/9/12/4693710/the-end-of-kindness-weev-and-the-cult-of-the-angry-young-man http://www.theverge.com/2013/9/12/4693710/the-end-of-kindnes... I also want to mention that we were super scared of publishing our individual experiences for this exact fear and questioning of our lived experience.

optimusclimb 12y ago
Thanks for the links. A question - Do you think (or have any information) on if this is particularly worse in tech, than in other industries?
- nimbupani 12y ago
  I worked for less than 5 months in a non-tech industry (and in a female-majority workplace) to form any opinion on that.
- danilocampos 12y ago
  Why does this even remotely matter? We're in tech. This is our home. Let's clean it up.
- optimusclimb 12y ago
  @danilocampos - I think it matters for getting to a solution. If there's something inherent in tech, or its male work force that makes the problem worse, then knowing that might help get at the root of the problem a little faster.
  - beat 12y ago
    We already understand the roots of the problem quite well... comparing to other industries won't make much difference. 1. Male-dominated environment, women are a significant minority. 2. Inexcusable tolerance of sexist behavior - not calling it out when we see it. 3. "Why are you blaming me? I'm not one of those guys. Men might listen to you if you'd just stop the blanket accusations." (extra credit: count how many comments on this thread can be reduced to that sentiment.)
    - mreiland 12y ago
      it should be noted that pointing out #3 doesn't make it an invalid point, and it certainly has nothing to do with why the issue exists in the first place.

hkmurakami 12y ago

I feel strongly that we shouldn't allow ourselves to forget about the "death by a thousand cuts" aspect either. Even the "decent, upstanding guys" (a cohort that we are presumably a part of) are most likely responsible for a papercut or two (I certainly am). And these papercuts are just as profound a barrier in impeding progress in this area than the readily noticeable offenses, in my opinion.

rjknight 12y ago

> "not all men" attitude is a key way that harassers are sheltered. I'm not sure that this makes sense. Saying that someone's behaviour is unusual - not typical of most men - does not sound like sheltering them. Most men don't harass women, ergo the men that do are a minority whose views and behaviour are out of step with their peers. I think we need to say this more.

detcader 12y ago
It makes sense, it is just nuanced. Try: http://www.newstatesman.com/2013/08/laurie-penny/men-sexism http://www.newstatesman.com/2013/08/laurie-penny/men-sexism