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You read the story of a range of women from across the industry, said you haven't had the experience these women have had, and then explicitly asked men for the

You read the story of a range of women from across the industry, said you haven't had the experience these women have had, and then explicitly asked men for their opinions. See if you can figure out the bug here. * "We have this problem with our iOS app." * "I use Android and have never seen this. Any other Android users encounter this?"

optimusclimb 12y ago
Anil - I'd have expected a bit less snarky of tone from someone so public, but I'll try and answer you anyway: Yes, I asked other males what they've seen. You can't change reality. Our industry is about as male as the army. I could probably have counted the females in my computer science program back in college on one hand. I'm just wondering if it really all is as behind closed doors/hidden as is implied, or perhaps I just haven't come across it. People talk. They meet up in bars. I hear all sorts of things from other people in the industry over FrieNDA - though I really haven't heard many stories like these.
- makomk 12y ago
  Why should he be less snarky? After all, the tech industry supposedly loves straight-talking engineers like Linus Torvalds who don't beat around the bush and tell people bluntly why they're wrong - so much so that we even let them get away with gratuitous personal insults and misguided arguments.
  - davidgerard 12y ago
    Whenever a geek says how much he loves unvarnished communcation, what he means is that he loves sending it - the same people regularly hit the roof when they receive it.
  - mreiland 12y ago
    There's a clear difference between a technical discussion and a social one. Do you think Linus is this way to everyone in every facet of his life? context.
- anildash 12y ago
  Honestly wasn't trying to be snarky -- it may just come naturally. (Would also separately argue I'm not particularly well known on HN.) If "our industry" is defined as the technology industry, it's actually far less male than the army; We just insist on not counting the women who frequently lead efforts around communications, corporate development, design, marketing, office management, and other essential parts of the business. And even within engineering-focused disciplines, there used to be far more women involved but the number has been going down in recent decades. But the question all of us men have to ask ourselves is: Why do you need another source. You had a whole range of people already telling you what they saw, and you're looking for people who by definition would have less information about this topic to provide their opinions. Why do you think that's the case?
  - optimusclimb 12y ago
    I edited my post (only to add, not change it.) After reflection, I think it was a little off base, even if well intentioned.
    - anildash 12y ago
      I appreciate the thought and reflection, especially given that my response could reasonably be seen as snarky.
  - jsmthrowaway 12y ago
    > (Would also separately argue I'm not particularly well known on HN.) Because you're a single-issue commenter lately. You don't miss opportunities to jump in an HN thread about gender relations.
  - rjknight 12y ago
    It's not a question of sources, it's a question of being able to identify the thing when it happens. Women have no problem in identifying it, because it's directed at them. Men might have a problem identifying it, for various possible reasons. I think the poster you replied to was asking for opinions from other men about what they see happening in order to understand what kind of stuff is visible to men. I have the same problem - I can't recall seeing anything that would qualify as harassment in any of my workplaces, and I would like to know if that's because I'm failing to see it, or if there's another reason.
worksaf 12y ago
When you understand why you dismiss my viewpoint so easily, you'll understand why I dismiss yours with the same ease.
hkmurakami 12y ago
I came here to say something similar: that the same action or speech can/will be interpreted very differently based on a whole slew of factors, including gender, ethnicity, or just plainly being different people to begin with. What appears "okay" or "benign" or "in jest" can certainly not be the case for a colleague, whichever gender they may be [1]. In fact, I'd argue that it's hard to perceive the inappropriateness of our own actions in the moment. It's much easier to notice the possible auxiliary effects of our past actions when reflecting on them at a later time. Frankly, I can think of any number of things that I've said or done in the recent past that may have made my female friends and colleagues twitch an eyebrow, but didn't elicit an explicit response because they've learned to just deal with it and let it go, having been in a boys club for so long (one started her career in investment banking). And I'd consider myself to be fairly self-aware of these issues, and yet I've admittedly failed many times over. edit: and frankly, how many of us voluntarily and regularly look back at our past week/month to think about the ways in which we've failed ourselves and our own principles in this area? We may review the ways in which we failed in our job capacity and reflect on how we can improve, but I think the frequency with which we do the same for our social interactions is much lower. [1] In fact, I think "I was just kidding" is one of the lamest excuses for actions that at times clearly are not thus.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
dropit_sphere 12y ago
That's not the logic. It's more: "I'm an iOS user and every time an Android device is on the network my phone crashes." * "I use Android and have never seen this. Have any other Android users seen this?"
- mreiland 12y ago
  And then someone replies with "yes, I have a co-worker who had the same issue, here's how we fixed it..." The question is, would anyone tell them they couldn't possibly know that since they don't use IOS?
Ma8ee 12y ago
Many women ask that more men would stand up for them. I think that many men would if they actually saw something occur, but many just don't see anything. In my own career I have only once seen anything that even looked like harassment or discrimination, and that was almost 20 years ago. It does not mean that I question these women's experiences, but I do think it means that the "bullies" know that what they do isn't accepted by their peers. And hopefully that means that speaking up more when these things occur would make a positive difference.
- ankey1 12y ago
  Woman developer here. That's the one piece of advice I give to men who ask what they can do to help. I've had way more men come to me privately after an incident to apologize for being a witness and saying nothing than have actively stepped in to stop what was going on. I wish it were the other way around.
  - mreiland 12y ago
    why should they? I mean that honestly because context matters. Why didn't you say something? Why should they be expected to step up and say something if you yourself are not willing to (was it a superior, for example?). Was there some brouhaha in which they sat silent while you had to defend yourself? And why not ask them if you can submit their name to HR as a witness to the behavior instead of getting disappointed in them for not doing it themselves? At the end of the day, the only person who is ultimately expected to stand up for you, is you. It's that way regardless of gender. edit: I still don't understand why HN allows replies to some posts and not others, but to respond to the post below me. Because it's unfair to ask a man to put themselves at risk protecting a women when she, herself, refuses to put herself at risk. This isn't about male vs female, this is about a person putting themselves at risk for another person, and the fairness of it. This is specifically why I asked for context.
    - gress 12y ago
      So you don't care about injustice you witness and you don't want others to either? Women already have less power because they are in a minority. It seems as though you want them to take responsibility for all cultural change. It sounds as though you don't think there is a problem.

optimusclimb 12y ago

Anil - I'd have expected a bit less snarky of tone from someone so public, but I'll try and answer you anyway: Yes, I asked other males what they've seen. You can't change reality. Our industry is about as male as the army. I could probably have counted the females in my computer science program back in college on one hand. I'm just wondering if it really all is as behind closed doors/hidden as is implied, or perhaps I just haven't come across it. People talk. They meet up in bars. I hear all sorts of things from other people in the industry over FrieNDA - though I really haven't heard many stories like these.

makomk 12y ago
Why should he be less snarky? After all, the tech industry supposedly loves straight-talking engineers like Linus Torvalds who don't beat around the bush and tell people bluntly why they're wrong - so much so that we even let them get away with gratuitous personal insults and misguided arguments.
- davidgerard 12y ago
  Whenever a geek says how much he loves unvarnished communcation, what he means is that he loves sending it - the same people regularly hit the roof when they receive it.
- mreiland 12y ago
  There's a clear difference between a technical discussion and a social one. Do you think Linus is this way to everyone in every facet of his life? context.
anildash 12y ago
Honestly wasn't trying to be snarky -- it may just come naturally. (Would also separately argue I'm not particularly well known on HN.) If "our industry" is defined as the technology industry, it's actually far less male than the army; We just insist on not counting the women who frequently lead efforts around communications, corporate development, design, marketing, office management, and other essential parts of the business. And even within engineering-focused disciplines, there used to be far more women involved but the number has been going down in recent decades. But the question all of us men have to ask ourselves is: Why do you need another source. You had a whole range of people already telling you what they saw, and you're looking for people who by definition would have less information about this topic to provide their opinions. Why do you think that's the case?
- optimusclimb 12y ago
  I edited my post (only to add, not change it.) After reflection, I think it was a little off base, even if well intentioned.
  - anildash 12y ago
    I appreciate the thought and reflection, especially given that my response could reasonably be seen as snarky.
- jsmthrowaway 12y ago
  > (Would also separately argue I'm not particularly well known on HN.) Because you're a single-issue commenter lately. You don't miss opportunities to jump in an HN thread about gender relations.
- rjknight 12y ago
  It's not a question of sources, it's a question of being able to identify the thing when it happens. Women have no problem in identifying it, because it's directed at them. Men might have a problem identifying it, for various possible reasons. I think the poster you replied to was asking for opinions from other men about what they see happening in order to understand what kind of stuff is visible to men. I have the same problem - I can't recall seeing anything that would qualify as harassment in any of my workplaces, and I would like to know if that's because I'm failing to see it, or if there's another reason.

worksaf 12y ago

When you understand why you dismiss my viewpoint so easily, you'll understand why I dismiss yours with the same ease.

hkmurakami 12y ago

I came here to say something similar: that the same action or speech can/will be interpreted very differently based on a whole slew of factors, including gender, ethnicity, or just plainly being different people to begin with. What appears "okay" or "benign" or "in jest" can certainly not be the case for a colleague, whichever gender they may be [1]. In fact, I'd argue that it's hard to perceive the inappropriateness of our own actions in the moment. It's much easier to notice the possible auxiliary effects of our past actions when reflecting on them at a later time. Frankly, I can think of any number of things that I've said or done in the recent past that may have made my female friends and colleagues twitch an eyebrow, but didn't elicit an explicit response because they've learned to just deal with it and let it go, having been in a boys club for so long (one started her career in investment banking). And I'd consider myself to be fairly self-aware of these issues, and yet I've admittedly failed many times over. edit: and frankly, how many of us voluntarily and regularly look back at our past week/month to think about the ways in which we've failed ourselves and our own principles in this area? We may review the ways in which we failed in our job capacity and reflect on how we can improve, but I think the frequency with which we do the same for our social interactions is much lower. [1] In fact, I think "I was just kidding" is one of the lamest excuses for actions that at times clearly are not thus.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

dropit_sphere 12y ago

That's not the logic. It's more: "I'm an iOS user and every time an Android device is on the network my phone crashes." * "I use Android and have never seen this. Have any other Android users seen this?"

mreiland 12y ago
And then someone replies with "yes, I have a co-worker who had the same issue, here's how we fixed it..." The question is, would anyone tell them they couldn't possibly know that since they don't use IOS?

Ma8ee 12y ago

Many women ask that more men would stand up for them. I think that many men would if they actually saw something occur, but many just don't see anything. In my own career I have only once seen anything that even looked like harassment or discrimination, and that was almost 20 years ago. It does not mean that I question these women's experiences, but I do think it means that the "bullies" know that what they do isn't accepted by their peers. And hopefully that means that speaking up more when these things occur would make a positive difference.

ankey1 12y ago
Woman developer here. That's the one piece of advice I give to men who ask what they can do to help. I've had way more men come to me privately after an incident to apologize for being a witness and saying nothing than have actively stepped in to stop what was going on. I wish it were the other way around.
- mreiland 12y ago
  why should they? I mean that honestly because context matters. Why didn't you say something? Why should they be expected to step up and say something if you yourself are not willing to (was it a superior, for example?). Was there some brouhaha in which they sat silent while you had to defend yourself? And why not ask them if you can submit their name to HR as a witness to the behavior instead of getting disappointed in them for not doing it themselves? At the end of the day, the only person who is ultimately expected to stand up for you, is you. It's that way regardless of gender. edit: I still don't understand why HN allows replies to some posts and not others, but to respond to the post below me. Because it's unfair to ask a man to put themselves at risk protecting a women when she, herself, refuses to put herself at risk. This isn't about male vs female, this is about a person putting themselves at risk for another person, and the fairness of it. This is specifically why I asked for context.
  - gress 12y ago
    So you don't care about injustice you witness and you don't want others to either? Women already have less power because they are in a minority. It seems as though you want them to take responsibility for all cultural change. It sounds as though you don't think there is a problem.