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It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior t

It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? I have never seen it anywhere I worked, or heard of that sort of thing through word of mouth, but obviously that's a terrible sample set. My experiences related to women in tech: * Everywhere I've worked, it's been a boys club, but we'd LOVE to hire more women. Frankly, hiring is hard in general. When women have come in to interview, I can't speak for others - but I know in the back of my head, my biggest concern is, "Make sure you interview with the same standards as anyone else, but make sure you don't have some subconscious bias because she's a she." * There are probably good female engineers, and not so good ones. One of the few "not so good ones" I know of (doesn't mean she'll never improve, just at the time) had to be super carefully managed out over a long time. There was no unceremonious firing, that's for sure. * Is there even a "women in tech" problem? Or is it just "women in the workforce, no matter the industry"? The kinds of ridiculous behavior women are describing in these articles sound to me like they could happen in finance, sales, marketing, HR, or anywhere. * On any of the open source mailing lists I'm on, I've never seen anything remotely close to, "Your pull request sucks you whre, try again". Are these just the mythical basement dwelling trolls of Slashdot lore reaching out privately via email? Most of the engineers I know in tech are decent, upstanding guys. If anything, I feel like if any of us was pulled aside by a female co-worker and she described shenanigans of the sort I read about in these articles, we'd probably jump to their defense in a heart beat, almost maybe too easily. What have the rest of you experienced? * Edit: I left the above (my OP) in tact. After re-reading it, and some responses, it's become clear to me that it gives off an air of, "I don't believe these reports", and that's not really what I intended. I suppose my main point was that no, I haven't experienced it, and I think that's exactly what these women are saying - Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it's not there. So really, despite getting some up votes, I think I missed the boat. I was curious if others on my (the male) side have in fact seen it, but what does that tell us? Probably not much.

steveklabnik 12y ago
You bring up an interesting point, which is visibility. All of this stuff absolutely happens, but a _lot_ of it goes unreported. This leads to a situation where if you're 'on the inside,' you see and hear about it all the time. If you're not, then you don't. Generally, when I say "women have informal networks where they share stories of abuse to help other women be cautious around certain actors", there are two reactions: A nodding head, or a 'what the fuck?'
- mreiland 12y ago
  There is also confirmation bias.
  - platz 12y ago
    Also, the natural tenancy for those with an engineering mindset to subject all things to skepticism, is a problem for minorities, and partly due to the visibility problem you mentioned.
deleted 12y ago
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dpritchett 12y ago
I've not noticed untoward behavior in the office. The more overtly unwelcoming behavior seems to crop up outside of the office at networking events and conferences (and IRC and twitter and the bottom of this page). I will point out that of the various direct and second-level managers I've had since entering the industry in the early 2000s only three (out of a total of fourteen) were minorities.
anildash 12y ago
You read the story of a range of women from across the industry, said you haven't had the experience these women have had, and then explicitly asked men for their opinions. See if you can figure out the bug here. * "We have this problem with our iOS app." * "I use Android and have never seen this. Any other Android users encounter this?"
- optimusclimb 12y ago
  Anil - I'd have expected a bit less snarky of tone from someone so public, but I'll try and answer you anyway: Yes, I asked other males what they've seen. You can't change reality. Our industry is about as male as the army. I could probably have counted the females in my computer science program back in college on one hand. I'm just wondering if it really all is as behind closed doors/hidden as is implied, or perhaps I just haven't come across it. People talk. They meet up in bars. I hear all sorts of things from other people in the industry over FrieNDA - though I really haven't heard many stories like these.
  - makomk 12y ago
    Why should he be less snarky? After all, the tech industry supposedly loves straight-talking engineers like Linus Torvalds who don't beat around the bush and tell people bluntly why they're wrong - so much so that we even let them get away with gratuitous personal insults and misguided arguments.
    - davidgerard 12y ago
      Whenever a geek says how much he loves unvarnished communcation, what he means is that he loves sending it - the same people regularly hit the roof when they receive it.
    - mreiland 12y ago
      There's a clear difference between a technical discussion and a social one. Do you think Linus is this way to everyone in every facet of his life? context.
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deleted 12y ago
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worksaf 12y ago
As another guy in tech I share your experiences. I have never witnessed anything like what was described in that article and I have been working in tech for around 10 years now in a very diverse workplace. I also know of at least 1 woman who if she was a man would have been fired long ago yet she stays on because managers are basically afraid to fire her. I'm not saying these problems don't exist, I just find it hard to believe they are as widespread as is claimed. I know many women in tech and not one of them had a problem finding a job which is a good thing. This is my personal experience so make of it what you will.
- anildash 12y ago
  You are responding to a bug report on one platform by saying that you cannot reproduce it on another.
  - worksaf 12y ago
    A bug report with no evidence or sources making claims that cannot be verified by the readers. I could just as easily say I am being terrorized by my Female boss and shut down any women who disagree using your argument.
    - danilocampos 12y ago
      The article was loaded with evidence. There were links.
      - worksaf 12y ago
        There were many claims made in that article, outside of the links provided. This just seems like a giant circlejerk so enjoy it. I will continue living my life not discriminating against anyone whilst being told I am part of the problem.
epeus 12y ago
You won't see most of these incidents, because harassers do it when there are few witnesses. Ask your female colleagues for their stories. They all have them. So how does this fit with your "Most of the engineers I know in tech are decent, upstanding guys." - it fits perfectly. Clearly you know some who aren't decent. It only takes one to harass, and he can harass a large number of women; in fact the pattern is commonly to try it on with every woman, but in a way that leaves it as he said/she said. This is why "not all men do this" is such a weak-minded response. Don't let it slide. Your second guessing of women in your first point, and your "too easily" in the last indicate the problem too. Women who report harassment often get laid off or managed out afterwards, even when they have got the harasser fired. It is a very high risk thing for them to do, and your "not all men" attitude is a key way that harassers are sheltered.
- nimbupani 12y ago
  I am one of the contributors to the parent article. We mention a whole slew of 'what happens when you report harassment' incidents: - http://www.theverge.com/2013/9/12/4693710/the-end-of-kindness-weev-and-the-cult-of-the-angry-young-man http://www.theverge.com/2013/9/12/4693710/the-end-of-kindnes... - http://archive.today/20130110113908/jolieodell.wordpress.com/2010/03/16/why-sxsw-sucks/%23comment-1391 http://archive.today/20130110113908/jolieodell.wordpress.com... - http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/705/ http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/705/ - https://medium.com/@geeekcore1/d96f431f4e8e https://medium.com/@geeekcore1/d96f431f4e8e - http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=5698 http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=5698 - http://www.feministfrequency.com/2012/07/image-based-harassment-and-visual-misogyny/ http://www.feministfrequency.com/2012/07/image-based-harassm... - http://kateharding.net/2007/04/14/on-being-a-no-name-blogger-using-her-real-name/ http://kateharding.net/2007/04/14/on-being-a-no-name-blogger... - http://www.buzzfeed.com/rachelzarrell/blogger-writes-about-being-called-a-whore-scientific-america http://www.buzzfeed.com/rachelzarrell/blogger-writes-about-b... - http://www.feministfrequency.com/2012/07/image-based-harassment-and-visual-misogyny/ http://www.feministfrequency.com/2012/07/image-based-harassm... - https://medium.com/@geeekcore1/d96f431f4e8e https://medium.com/@geeekcore1/d96f431f4e8e - http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/705/ http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/705/ - http://www.theverge.com/2013/9/12/4693710/the-end-of-kindness-weev-and-the-cult-of-the-angry-young-man http://www.theverge.com/2013/9/12/4693710/the-end-of-kindnes... I also want to mention that we were super scared of publishing our individual experiences for this exact fear and questioning of our lived experience.
swombat 12y ago
I have seen it once, in one of my employees. I fired him. I still don't like the ultra-feminist movement though. Hate doesn't achieve much good.
- ronaldx 12y ago
  I feel uncomfortable that you have implicitly associated the parent article and its goals with extremism and hatred, which I don't observe.
  - angersock 12y ago
    If you don't believe the article deserves the association, please elaborate on why that is the case. One of the many problems feminism has faced is the lumping in of extremists with more moderates with all sorts of other splinter views; it's to be expected that your work may face the same criticisms.
  - swombat 12y ago
    I've seen those kinds of more extreme articles (and writers) on modelviewculture before, so I think it's fair to judge a publication by what it publishes. And some of these talking points were adopted by ultra-feminists.
    - lotsofmangos 12y ago
      How is this article extreme?
    - ronaldx 12y ago
      To clarify: it seems to me that you're using the term "ultra-feminist" to belittle and to trample the points being made.
    - AnimalMuppet 12y ago
      How about judging this article by what it says?
forgottenpass 12y ago
It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? I've been out of college for about 6 years now. The worst I even encountered professionally was a joke shared in a group of 3 or 4 dudes about women drivers. I remember it well because it was so incongruous with everything else I've seen. There was also a booth babe at a conference I went to, and everyone I spoke with (including staff) considered it at the very least tacky. There were blog posts about harassment at that conference, but I never witnessed any nor did anyone in my group of friends, acquaintances and colleagues attending ever speak of being uncomfortable there. I hear about more harassment towards the women I'm friends with after any given night of drinking at bars than the total I've ever heard from them about work.
- optimusclimb 12y ago
  > I hear about more harassment towards the women I'm friends with after any given night of drinking at bars than the total I've ever heard from them about work. Do you mean from men at bars in general? Or are you talking about when they're out with coworkers/other people in the industry?
  - forgottenpass 12y ago
    I mean randoms on the way to/from/at a bar. Yeah, there are co-workers and other people in the industry around, but we also go drinking with a bunch of teachers too. They're not the problem.
agentultra 12y ago
> Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? Yes. White, privileged male. I was attending Pycon 2013 in Santa, Clara. I had just spent the lunch hour with a good friend and his acquaintance, X. As we were leaving X decided it was an appropriate time to quietly share his views about women in tech with me. I was mortified at that moment and promptly exited the conversation without addressing X's comments to me. I've felt terrible about that exchange ever since.
- angersock 12y ago
  "promptly exited the conversation without addressing X's comments to me." I understand that it can be difficult, but we all need to speak up in circumstances like these.
- anuleczka 12y ago
  Thank you for your honesty. As a woman, I tend to respond to these situations in the exact same way - out of shock and mortification. But that's exactly why this behavior can continue. So together, let's speak up for ourselves, for others, and for what is right.
gurkendoktor 12y ago
My experience has been the same as yours, but: > Make sure you interview with the same standards as anyone else Reading these open letters, isn't that The Wrong Thing? "Promote the fuck out of diversity" (from the OP) sounds as if we should strongly prefer female programmers, with a bigger focus on a healthy team than on skills alone. (Also related: http://readwrite.com/2014/01/24/github-meritocracy-rug http://readwrite.com/2014/01/24/github-meritocracy-rug) I'm genuinely curious because my experience is the same as yours (= nothing bad happened), but it dawns on me that I am now considered a part of the problem. :|
- hunterloftis 12y ago
  > we should strongly prefer female programmers this sort of mentality will encourage (and validate) concerns that female programmers are hired (and retained) because of gender rather than ability.
jacquesgt 12y ago
Why is this question only directed at men? Are women's views on this matter invalid because they're held by women?
- optimusclimb 12y ago
  I think you're thinking about it wrong. I believe women that this happens. I wasn't asking for "views" so much as, "what have you seen?"
jdp23 12y ago
Yes, as a male, I see this behavior regularly. If you're not seeing it, it's statistically highly unlikely that you're not coming into contact with it. Reading and understanding feminist perspectives can help you become more observant. Hacker News provides plenty of opportunities for practice identifying hostile-to-women comments. If you're not hearing about it through word of mouth, then it could be that you don't talk to a lot of women in tech, or don't talk to them about these issues, or you aren't fully hearing what they're saying. It could also be that they don't feel comfortable in discussing them with you. Look at your language and behavior and think about what could be sending unintentional messages that cause people to steer clear from this discussion. How many can you spot in this post, and in your reply to Anil?
- optimusclimb 12y ago
  If, in posting something out of concern, and in trying to understand something better, I still am going to get chastised for "doing it wrong", then it really is an uphill battle.
  - jdp23 12y ago
    It is an uphill battle to become aware of the blinders and unconscious habits we all have. I was making suggestions (not chastising) assuming that you really are trying to understand, and are willing to make the effort even if it's challenging.
    - mrgn 12y ago
      This uphill battle is becoming easier and easier, as evidenced by how many men are coming forward here to share their experiences and support. If you feel chastised, it's likely because, in the face of an overwhelming amount of data and evidence, your statements read in the vein of incredulity and dismissiveness rather than 'concern' and 'understanding.'
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- 12y ago
Fomite 12y ago
Yes, I've seen this stuff, repeatedly, and passed off without comment. More than that, I have the good sense to take my female colleagues at their word.
lotsofmangos 12y ago
I have left a company because they flat-out refused to consider hiring women for coding jobs, with the CEO saying that women are too fragile for critical roles. This kind of idiocy is relatively common in UK executives, as a fairly large chunk of them went to exclusive private boys schools and so never had to really deal with women as equal peers until adulthood.
- hkmurakami 12y ago
  Wouldn't they get that exposure during university though? I certainly had long-held views challenged and changed during my time in college, where I was exposed to a much larger spectrum of the population compared to my predominantly Caucasian, upper-middle class upbringing.* * I briefly attended a UK postgraduate institution.
  - jiggy2011 12y ago
    Oxbridge still has gender segregated colleges, though (I think) they are a minority of colleges now.
    - hkmurakami 12y ago
      Was at Cambridge. There are no male-only colleges and two (iirc) female only colleges. Can't speak for Oxford, but I suspect a similar situation. That being said, I'm not sure what the gender ratios are at the historically all male colleges. Perhaps they are not close to 50:50 (apparently this is the case with US business schools, where the ratios are often 65:35, and often have a bro/fratty feel to them)
sequoia 12y ago
a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? Why do you need a "male reader" to confirm this to you? Your question reads thus: 'I can't believe this if I only hear it from a woman-- is there a man in the audience who can confirm this?' To turn it around a bit, why do you find these stories unbelievable & why do you need a man to confirm their veracity?
- optimusclimb 12y ago
  I never said I find them unbelievable. Quite the opposite.
  - sequoia 12y ago
    Why you appear not to believe them (I can't know your beliefs I can only guess based off the text of your comment): 1. Has any man here "heard of, or come into contact with any of" any of this behavior? 2. Personally, "I have never seen it anywhere I worked, or heard of that sort of thing through word of mouth..."* These statements suggest strong skepticism. Analogy: "Has anyone here actually experienced or come into contact with Climate Change? Personally I have not, nor have I ever heard of anyone having experienced it..." <-- this suggests the speaker doesn't believe climate change is real. This is what your comment suggests about the issues described in TFA. *Yes I know you mentioned the "terrible sample set" but that doesn't un-ring the "I'm skeptical" bell.
    - baddox 12y ago
      I tend to think that skepticism is a good thing.
      - platz 12y ago
        skepticism is a killer for minorities.
      - breadbox 12y ago
        I tend to think a lot of things are good things that can also be abused.
mbillie1 12y ago
Yes, as a white male I see it constantly. I worked for what I would consider one of the best for women in tech (ThoughtWorks) and even there you see this stuff. So much more in other places. > Most of the engineers I know in tech are decent, upstanding guys. If anything, I feel like if any of us was pulled aside by a female co-worker and she described shenanigans of the sort I read about in these articles, we'd probably jump to their defense in a heart beat, almost maybe too easily. So here's the thing: most guys everywhere are decent, upstanding guys. Don't think that MVC is writing this to slander decent, upstanding guys. But being decent and upstanding does not make you aware of all forms of harassment and discrimination, and you can still do harm without meaning to or being aware that you're doing it. It's important to talk about the experiences of women in tech, to talk with women in tech and understand what their concerns are, not because they want to beat you over the head for being a bad person, but because you just don't see it. I can never have the experiences of a woman in tech - I'm not one. That's why it's so important to listen to what they are saying.
- hkmurakami 12y ago
  And reading articles like this (as much as our initial inclination may be to avoid looking at them) makes us reflect on the ways that we as decent, upstanding guys have missed the mark in the past. I've seen/heard of harassment'ish inappropriate comments made by a colleague and let it go unreported. Didn't even talk to the guy in person in private to subtly suggest that his behavior may be making our female colleagues uncomfortable. I made various subconscious excuses to myself for being a bystander, and by doing so I was contributing to the prolongation of the problem. Even if you place the 'me' of today in the shoes of myself back then, I'm not confident that I'd be able to stand up for my female colleagues for all the reasons that both men and women typically give for just letting things slide. I'm honestly ashamed of this fact, and hope I can slowly be more courageous in this regard.
  - anuleczka 12y ago
    Thanks for your honesty. It's hard to be courageous, whether you're the victim or the bystander (since it means you put yourself at risk of being the next victim, yes?). But it's not impossible, so let's all try to remember that.
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IsaacSchlueter 12y ago
Male here. Yes. Many many times. If anything, this is a very conservative report. I'm guessing that you've seen it, too. Probably you didn't notice it, because it wasn't directed at you, and everyone in the room was also pretending it didn't happen.
gamacodre 12y ago
I've seen some milder forms of it. As a team lead about 20 years ago, one of my guys started going on about the virtues of the "cheesecake" in the game we were working on. In the middle of a meeting between him, myself and our other coder who happened to be female. She got really quiet, and I said something to him along the lines of, "Oh, come on, man," and moved the meeting along. Didn't really address it beyond that; my own social skills weren't up to taking it further, and I didn't notice any more like that for the remainder of the project. Mostly, though, the shops I've worked in haven't had these issues, at least not anywhere that I could see them. Women seem to have been well integrated into our teams when there were any. I think that a lot of the behavior mentioned in the letter is stuff that no-one wants to work with. Guys who will act weird with a co-worker because they're (female/minority/disabled/whatever) are good people to avoid for professional reasons; it implies numerous faults in character and understanding, and no good excuse for them.
- mreiland 12y ago
  I guess I'm missing the significance of the term cheesecake?
cafard 12y ago
Yes, and not only in tech. The drunken business owner who chased one of his employees around the table wasn't at a tech business.

steveklabnik 12y ago

You bring up an interesting point, which is visibility. All of this stuff absolutely happens, but a _lot_ of it goes unreported. This leads to a situation where if you're 'on the inside,' you see and hear about it all the time. If you're not, then you don't. Generally, when I say "women have informal networks where they share stories of abuse to help other women be cautious around certain actors", there are two reactions: A nodding head, or a 'what the fuck?'

mreiland 12y ago
There is also confirmation bias.
- platz 12y ago
  Also, the natural tenancy for those with an engineering mindset to subject all things to skepticism, is a problem for minorities, and partly due to the visibility problem you mentioned.

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dpritchett 12y ago

I've not noticed untoward behavior in the office. The more overtly unwelcoming behavior seems to crop up outside of the office at networking events and conferences (and IRC and twitter and the bottom of this page). I will point out that of the various direct and second-level managers I've had since entering the industry in the early 2000s only three (out of a total of fourteen) were minorities.

anildash 12y ago

You read the story of a range of women from across the industry, said you haven't had the experience these women have had, and then explicitly asked men for their opinions. See if you can figure out the bug here. * "We have this problem with our iOS app." * "I use Android and have never seen this. Any other Android users encounter this?"

optimusclimb 12y ago
Anil - I'd have expected a bit less snarky of tone from someone so public, but I'll try and answer you anyway: Yes, I asked other males what they've seen. You can't change reality. Our industry is about as male as the army. I could probably have counted the females in my computer science program back in college on one hand. I'm just wondering if it really all is as behind closed doors/hidden as is implied, or perhaps I just haven't come across it. People talk. They meet up in bars. I hear all sorts of things from other people in the industry over FrieNDA - though I really haven't heard many stories like these.
- makomk 12y ago
  Why should he be less snarky? After all, the tech industry supposedly loves straight-talking engineers like Linus Torvalds who don't beat around the bush and tell people bluntly why they're wrong - so much so that we even let them get away with gratuitous personal insults and misguided arguments.
  - davidgerard 12y ago
    Whenever a geek says how much he loves unvarnished communcation, what he means is that he loves sending it - the same people regularly hit the roof when they receive it.
  - mreiland 12y ago
    There's a clear difference between a technical discussion and a social one. Do you think Linus is this way to everyone in every facet of his life? context.
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worksaf 12y ago

As another guy in tech I share your experiences. I have never witnessed anything like what was described in that article and I have been working in tech for around 10 years now in a very diverse workplace. I also know of at least 1 woman who if she was a man would have been fired long ago yet she stays on because managers are basically afraid to fire her. I'm not saying these problems don't exist, I just find it hard to believe they are as widespread as is claimed. I know many women in tech and not one of them had a problem finding a job which is a good thing. This is my personal experience so make of it what you will.

anildash 12y ago
You are responding to a bug report on one platform by saying that you cannot reproduce it on another.
- worksaf 12y ago
  A bug report with no evidence or sources making claims that cannot be verified by the readers. I could just as easily say I am being terrorized by my Female boss and shut down any women who disagree using your argument.
  - danilocampos 12y ago
    The article was loaded with evidence. There were links.
    - worksaf 12y ago
      There were many claims made in that article, outside of the links provided. This just seems like a giant circlejerk so enjoy it. I will continue living my life not discriminating against anyone whilst being told I am part of the problem.

epeus 12y ago

You won't see most of these incidents, because harassers do it when there are few witnesses. Ask your female colleagues for their stories. They all have them. So how does this fit with your "Most of the engineers I know in tech are decent, upstanding guys." - it fits perfectly. Clearly you know some who aren't decent. It only takes one to harass, and he can harass a large number of women; in fact the pattern is commonly to try it on with every woman, but in a way that leaves it as he said/she said. This is why "not all men do this" is such a weak-minded response. Don't let it slide. Your second guessing of women in your first point, and your "too easily" in the last indicate the problem too. Women who report harassment often get laid off or managed out afterwards, even when they have got the harasser fired. It is a very high risk thing for them to do, and your "not all men" attitude is a key way that harassers are sheltered.

nimbupani 12y ago
I am one of the contributors to the parent article. We mention a whole slew of 'what happens when you report harassment' incidents: - http://www.theverge.com/2013/9/12/4693710/the-end-of-kindness-weev-and-the-cult-of-the-angry-young-man http://www.theverge.com/2013/9/12/4693710/the-end-of-kindnes... - http://archive.today/20130110113908/jolieodell.wordpress.com/2010/03/16/why-sxsw-sucks/%23comment-1391 http://archive.today/20130110113908/jolieodell.wordpress.com... - http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/705/ http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/705/ - https://medium.com/@geeekcore1/d96f431f4e8e https://medium.com/@geeekcore1/d96f431f4e8e - http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=5698 http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=5698 - http://www.feministfrequency.com/2012/07/image-based-harassment-and-visual-misogyny/ http://www.feministfrequency.com/2012/07/image-based-harassm... - http://kateharding.net/2007/04/14/on-being-a-no-name-blogger-using-her-real-name/ http://kateharding.net/2007/04/14/on-being-a-no-name-blogger... - http://www.buzzfeed.com/rachelzarrell/blogger-writes-about-being-called-a-whore-scientific-america http://www.buzzfeed.com/rachelzarrell/blogger-writes-about-b... - http://www.feministfrequency.com/2012/07/image-based-harassment-and-visual-misogyny/ http://www.feministfrequency.com/2012/07/image-based-harassm... - https://medium.com/@geeekcore1/d96f431f4e8e https://medium.com/@geeekcore1/d96f431f4e8e - http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/705/ http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/705/ - http://www.theverge.com/2013/9/12/4693710/the-end-of-kindness-weev-and-the-cult-of-the-angry-young-man http://www.theverge.com/2013/9/12/4693710/the-end-of-kindnes... I also want to mention that we were super scared of publishing our individual experiences for this exact fear and questioning of our lived experience.

swombat 12y ago

I have seen it once, in one of my employees. I fired him. I still don't like the ultra-feminist movement though. Hate doesn't achieve much good.

ronaldx 12y ago
I feel uncomfortable that you have implicitly associated the parent article and its goals with extremism and hatred, which I don't observe.
- angersock 12y ago
  If you don't believe the article deserves the association, please elaborate on why that is the case. One of the many problems feminism has faced is the lumping in of extremists with more moderates with all sorts of other splinter views; it's to be expected that your work may face the same criticisms.
- swombat 12y ago
  I've seen those kinds of more extreme articles (and writers) on modelviewculture before, so I think it's fair to judge a publication by what it publishes. And some of these talking points were adopted by ultra-feminists.
  - lotsofmangos 12y ago
    How is this article extreme?
  - ronaldx 12y ago
    To clarify: it seems to me that you're using the term "ultra-feminist" to belittle and to trample the points being made.
  - AnimalMuppet 12y ago
    How about judging this article by what it says?

forgottenpass 12y ago

It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? I've been out of college for about 6 years now. The worst I even encountered professionally was a joke shared in a group of 3 or 4 dudes about women drivers. I remember it well because it was so incongruous with everything else I've seen. There was also a booth babe at a conference I went to, and everyone I spoke with (including staff) considered it at the very least tacky. There were blog posts about harassment at that conference, but I never witnessed any nor did anyone in my group of friends, acquaintances and colleagues attending ever speak of being uncomfortable there. I hear about more harassment towards the women I'm friends with after any given night of drinking at bars than the total I've ever heard from them about work.

optimusclimb 12y ago
> I hear about more harassment towards the women I'm friends with after any given night of drinking at bars than the total I've ever heard from them about work. Do you mean from men at bars in general? Or are you talking about when they're out with coworkers/other people in the industry?
- forgottenpass 12y ago
  I mean randoms on the way to/from/at a bar. Yeah, there are co-workers and other people in the industry around, but we also go drinking with a bunch of teachers too. They're not the problem.

agentultra 12y ago

> Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? Yes. White, privileged male. I was attending Pycon 2013 in Santa, Clara. I had just spent the lunch hour with a good friend and his acquaintance, X. As we were leaving X decided it was an appropriate time to quietly share his views about women in tech with me. I was mortified at that moment and promptly exited the conversation without addressing X's comments to me. I've felt terrible about that exchange ever since.

angersock 12y ago
"promptly exited the conversation without addressing X's comments to me." I understand that it can be difficult, but we all need to speak up in circumstances like these.
anuleczka 12y ago
Thank you for your honesty. As a woman, I tend to respond to these situations in the exact same way - out of shock and mortification. But that's exactly why this behavior can continue. So together, let's speak up for ourselves, for others, and for what is right.

gurkendoktor 12y ago

My experience has been the same as yours, but: > Make sure you interview with the same standards as anyone else Reading these open letters, isn't that The Wrong Thing? "Promote the fuck out of diversity" (from the OP) sounds as if we should strongly prefer female programmers, with a bigger focus on a healthy team than on skills alone. (Also related: http://readwrite.com/2014/01/24/github-meritocracy-rug http://readwrite.com/2014/01/24/github-meritocracy-rug) I'm genuinely curious because my experience is the same as yours (= nothing bad happened), but it dawns on me that I am now considered a part of the problem. :|

hunterloftis 12y ago
> we should strongly prefer female programmers this sort of mentality will encourage (and validate) concerns that female programmers are hired (and retained) because of gender rather than ability.

jacquesgt 12y ago

Why is this question only directed at men? Are women's views on this matter invalid because they're held by women?

optimusclimb 12y ago
I think you're thinking about it wrong. I believe women that this happens. I wasn't asking for "views" so much as, "what have you seen?"

jdp23 12y ago

Yes, as a male, I see this behavior regularly. If you're not seeing it, it's statistically highly unlikely that you're not coming into contact with it. Reading and understanding feminist perspectives can help you become more observant. Hacker News provides plenty of opportunities for practice identifying hostile-to-women comments. If you're not hearing about it through word of mouth, then it could be that you don't talk to a lot of women in tech, or don't talk to them about these issues, or you aren't fully hearing what they're saying. It could also be that they don't feel comfortable in discussing them with you. Look at your language and behavior and think about what could be sending unintentional messages that cause people to steer clear from this discussion. How many can you spot in this post, and in your reply to Anil?

optimusclimb 12y ago
If, in posting something out of concern, and in trying to understand something better, I still am going to get chastised for "doing it wrong", then it really is an uphill battle.
- jdp23 12y ago
  It is an uphill battle to become aware of the blinders and unconscious habits we all have. I was making suggestions (not chastising) assuming that you really are trying to understand, and are willing to make the effort even if it's challenging.
  - mrgn 12y ago
    This uphill battle is becoming easier and easier, as evidenced by how many men are coming forward here to share their experiences and support. If you feel chastised, it's likely because, in the face of an overwhelming amount of data and evidence, your statements read in the vein of incredulity and dismissiveness rather than 'concern' and 'understanding.'
- deleted 12y ago
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12y ago

Fomite 12y ago

Yes, I've seen this stuff, repeatedly, and passed off without comment. More than that, I have the good sense to take my female colleagues at their word.

lotsofmangos 12y ago

I have left a company because they flat-out refused to consider hiring women for coding jobs, with the CEO saying that women are too fragile for critical roles. This kind of idiocy is relatively common in UK executives, as a fairly large chunk of them went to exclusive private boys schools and so never had to really deal with women as equal peers until adulthood.

hkmurakami 12y ago
Wouldn't they get that exposure during university though? I certainly had long-held views challenged and changed during my time in college, where I was exposed to a much larger spectrum of the population compared to my predominantly Caucasian, upper-middle class upbringing.* * I briefly attended a UK postgraduate institution.
- jiggy2011 12y ago
  Oxbridge still has gender segregated colleges, though (I think) they are a minority of colleges now.
  - hkmurakami 12y ago
    Was at Cambridge. There are no male-only colleges and two (iirc) female only colleges. Can't speak for Oxford, but I suspect a similar situation. That being said, I'm not sure what the gender ratios are at the historically all male colleges. Perhaps they are not close to 50:50 (apparently this is the case with US business schools, where the ratios are often 65:35, and often have a bro/fratty feel to them)

sequoia 12y ago

a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? Why do you need a "male reader" to confirm this to you? Your question reads thus: 'I can't believe this if I only hear it from a woman-- is there a man in the audience who can confirm this?' To turn it around a bit, why do you find these stories unbelievable & why do you need a man to confirm their veracity?

optimusclimb 12y ago
I never said I find them unbelievable. Quite the opposite.
- sequoia 12y ago
  Why you appear not to believe them (I can't know your beliefs I can only guess based off the text of your comment): 1. Has any man here "heard of, or come into contact with any of" any of this behavior? 2. Personally, "I have never seen it anywhere I worked, or heard of that sort of thing through word of mouth..."* These statements suggest strong skepticism. Analogy: "Has anyone here actually experienced or come into contact with Climate Change? Personally I have not, nor have I ever heard of anyone having experienced it..." <-- this suggests the speaker doesn't believe climate change is real. This is what your comment suggests about the issues described in TFA. *Yes I know you mentioned the "terrible sample set" but that doesn't un-ring the "I'm skeptical" bell.
  - baddox 12y ago
    I tend to think that skepticism is a good thing.
    - platz 12y ago
      skepticism is a killer for minorities.
    - breadbox 12y ago
      I tend to think a lot of things are good things that can also be abused.

mbillie1 12y ago

Yes, as a white male I see it constantly. I worked for what I would consider one of the best for women in tech (ThoughtWorks) and even there you see this stuff. So much more in other places. > Most of the engineers I know in tech are decent, upstanding guys. If anything, I feel like if any of us was pulled aside by a female co-worker and she described shenanigans of the sort I read about in these articles, we'd probably jump to their defense in a heart beat, almost maybe too easily. So here's the thing: most guys everywhere are decent, upstanding guys. Don't think that MVC is writing this to slander decent, upstanding guys. But being decent and upstanding does not make you aware of all forms of harassment and discrimination, and you can still do harm without meaning to or being aware that you're doing it. It's important to talk about the experiences of women in tech, to talk with women in tech and understand what their concerns are, not because they want to beat you over the head for being a bad person, but because you just don't see it. I can never have the experiences of a woman in tech - I'm not one. That's why it's so important to listen to what they are saying.

hkmurakami 12y ago
And reading articles like this (as much as our initial inclination may be to avoid looking at them) makes us reflect on the ways that we as decent, upstanding guys have missed the mark in the past. I've seen/heard of harassment'ish inappropriate comments made by a colleague and let it go unreported. Didn't even talk to the guy in person in private to subtly suggest that his behavior may be making our female colleagues uncomfortable. I made various subconscious excuses to myself for being a bystander, and by doing so I was contributing to the prolongation of the problem. Even if you place the 'me' of today in the shoes of myself back then, I'm not confident that I'd be able to stand up for my female colleagues for all the reasons that both men and women typically give for just letting things slide. I'm honestly ashamed of this fact, and hope I can slowly be more courageous in this regard.
- anuleczka 12y ago
  Thanks for your honesty. It's hard to be courageous, whether you're the victim or the bystander (since it means you put yourself at risk of being the next victim, yes?). But it's not impossible, so let's all try to remember that.

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IsaacSchlueter 12y ago

Male here. Yes. Many many times. If anything, this is a very conservative report. I'm guessing that you've seen it, too. Probably you didn't notice it, because it wasn't directed at you, and everyone in the room was also pretending it didn't happen.

gamacodre 12y ago

I've seen some milder forms of it. As a team lead about 20 years ago, one of my guys started going on about the virtues of the "cheesecake" in the game we were working on. In the middle of a meeting between him, myself and our other coder who happened to be female. She got really quiet, and I said something to him along the lines of, "Oh, come on, man," and moved the meeting along. Didn't really address it beyond that; my own social skills weren't up to taking it further, and I didn't notice any more like that for the remainder of the project. Mostly, though, the shops I've worked in haven't had these issues, at least not anywhere that I could see them. Women seem to have been well integrated into our teams when there were any. I think that a lot of the behavior mentioned in the letter is stuff that no-one wants to work with. Guys who will act weird with a co-worker because they're (female/minority/disabled/whatever) are good people to avoid for professional reasons; it implies numerous faults in character and understanding, and no good excuse for them.

mreiland 12y ago
I guess I'm missing the significance of the term cheesecake?

cafard 12y ago

Yes, and not only in tech. The drunken business owner who chased one of his employees around the table wasn't at a tech business.