3 ms·

You missed the European Parliament, which is elected (with elections taking place right now). The balance of power between the EC and the EP needs to be shifted

by cstross 12y ago

You missed the European Parliament, which is elected (with elections taking place right now). The balance of power between the EC and the EP needs to be shifted towards the EP, and other reforms are essential -- but the EU is not intrinsically anti-democratic; the real problem is that the members are all (at least nominally, esp. in the case of Hungary) democracies, with parliaments jealous of delegating power to a higher authority, so the regional governments have deliberate policies of trying to keep the center weak and unaccountable to the polity.

aaronem 12y ago
No doubt you know the United States had a similar problem in their early days, and that nothing sufficed to resolve that conflict short of a half-decade of generally very ugly warfare. Here's hoping the "United States of Europe" so-called don't find themselves so afflicted. From what I hear, though, that seems unlikely; it sounds as though those charged with its assembly are, whether or not they consider it in these terms, attempting wholly to preëmpt the democratic phase, by not only skipping straight to the bureaucratic sclerosis, but actually designing said bureaucracy instead of letting it simply grow in its own fashion. It's an interesting idea, and probably the best chance they've got of avoiding the susceptibility to dangerous enthusiasms which is a young democracy's besetting flaw. On the other hand, it seems at least plausible that attempting to subsume into federalism a range of distinct polities each of which has centuries of history as an independent state, without hammering them together by main force as was eventually done in the American case, is a project doomed to ignominious failure. Whether it'll actually work and how well, I haven't the slightest, but I sure do look forward to finding out.
benaston 12y ago
I omitted to mention the European Parliament for the very reason that it is democratic and is not relevant to my point. The European Commission, a key part of the EU is not elected by the people of Europe, hence it's members cannot be removed directly by the people of Europe and hence the EU as it currently stands is inherently undemocratic. Given the lessons to be learned from the history of Europe, I find this surprising and concerning.

by cstross 12y ago

aaronem 12y ago

No doubt you know the United States had a similar problem in their early days, and that nothing sufficed to resolve that conflict short of a half-decade of generally very ugly warfare. Here's hoping the "United States of Europe" so-called don't find themselves so afflicted. From what I hear, though, that seems unlikely; it sounds as though those charged with its assembly are, whether or not they consider it in these terms, attempting wholly to preëmpt the democratic phase, by not only skipping straight to the bureaucratic sclerosis, but actually designing said bureaucracy instead of letting it simply grow in its own fashion. It's an interesting idea, and probably the best chance they've got of avoiding the susceptibility to dangerous enthusiasms which is a young democracy's besetting flaw. On the other hand, it seems at least plausible that attempting to subsume into federalism a range of distinct polities each of which has centuries of history as an independent state, without hammering them together by main force as was eventually done in the American case, is a project doomed to ignominious failure. Whether it'll actually work and how well, I haven't the slightest, but I sure do look forward to finding out.

benaston 12y ago

I omitted to mention the European Parliament for the very reason that it is democratic and is not relevant to my point. The European Commission, a key part of the EU is not elected by the people of Europe, hence it's members cannot be removed directly by the people of Europe and hence the EU as it currently stands is inherently undemocratic. Given the lessons to be learned from the history of Europe, I find this surprising and concerning.