5 ms·

I have a feeling that "being busy" is just a gentle form of crowd control. I could see it in Japan, people being terribly busy at work, yet producing very littl

by bitL 12y ago

I have a feeling that "being busy" is just a gentle form of crowd control. I could see it in Japan, people being terribly busy at work, yet producing very little, spending most of the time during the day at job, unable to do anything in their spare time. I guess that's how Asian society makes sure there is no unexpected creativity leading to "interesting times". It could also help individual people to cope with social anxieties by being "busy". I wouldn't be surprised if the same were happening in the States. I don't believe people can be super-productive more than 5 hours a day unless they work on something they are passionate about or are on drugs. From my experience, just walking away from a difficult problem, taking time to walk in the forest, relax on the beach, playing sports with friends, doing completely unrelated relaxing things with total focus often leads to sudden inspirations on how to tackle difficult problems. It's like life is telling me to relax and rewards me with great ideas that can be immediately executed, for being just well balanced. I remember flying with one US businessman between Hawaiian islands, and he curiously asked me how many vacation days do I have - when I told him it's 6 weeks, he went on to complain about how crazy is it in the States, with average of 8.5 day or so of vacation per year. People, please live your lives!

tseabrooks 12y ago
Question on those 6 weeks. I've heard before that some countries include national holidays in there 5-6 week count. Is that the case here? Generally when Americans are listing their vacation days they are not including what they view as mandatory holidays (Memorial day, july 4th, thanksgiving, christmas, new years, etc). FWIW, I'm in the US and we have ~5-6 weeks vacation.
- bitL 12y ago
  I am currently in Germany, 6 weeks is basically a standard excluding holidays (which is up to 13 extra days depending on the state and weekend overlay as there are no bank holidays). So in the end you can end up with ~8 weeks. Minimum vacation days as specified by the law is 4 weeks. Most of my friends in the US start with 2 weeks, after a few years they get 3 weeks, then these are reset if they change the job, and if they take a vacation, they are either frowned upon or they have to be available to work on a moments notice. I find this utterly crazy.
  - pc86 12y ago
    I have not, nor have I ever met anyone who has, been expected to work or even be available on a vacation. I've also never taken or been offered a job with less than 3 weeks vacation to start. Current job (been here for 2 months) is 25 paid days off plus ten or so holidays. This seems to be a common criticism of the US but I've been in the professional workforce for just about a decade and have never come across this. I've worked remotely, for small companies with ten employees and Fortune 500 companies. I just don't believe there are people taking jobs where they get 10 days off a year and are expected to answer a phone call from their boss on vacation, unless they are 1) interns; 2) non-professional jobs, service industry, etc; 3) at the very beginning of their career (I could see this happening with more predatory employers with the huge number of unemployed recent grads looking for works).
    - bpyne 12y ago
      I think it depends on different factors. My wife has the same experience as you - never had less than 3 weeks of vacation time. She's a policy analyst in the non-profit sector. I've been in IT as a software developer for 20+ years and have been with 8 different employers across different industrial sectors and ranging from startup to Fortune 500. Most employer changes set me back to 2 weeks. I know people who feel pressure to work on vacation. The pressure is very real and isn't always related to ambition on the part of those people. Usually they're being exploited by an ambitious manager who has a "hold" of some kind, e.g. exploited person has a child with 2 years left of college and can't afford to lose his/her job.
    - bitL 12y ago
      Well, 2 weeks were a starting offer from once the most valuable company on the planet for a senior SW engineer position in California, with automatic extension by 1 week after the first year, and another week after a promotion to a staff engineer. One Seattle-based eCommerce company forced you to keep pager with you all the times, even on a vacation, if you were an unlucky part of operations. This can't happen in most European countries, unless the company desperately wants to lose plenty of court cases. One member of my US family in the midwest worked in an unionized menial job with 1 week of paid vacation including sick days. The rest was unpaid.
- alistairSH 12y ago
  That 5-6 weeks is well outside he norm in the US. In my experience, to get that much leave, you have to work at the same company for 5+ years. And either be highly-paid white collar OR highly paid union. http://www.psmag.com/navigation/business-economics/the-united-states-is-last-among-advanced-countries-in-paid-vacations-and-holidays-63857/ http://www.psmag.com/navigation/business-economics/the-unite... http://www.bls.gov/news.release/ebs.t05.htm http://www.bls.gov/news.release/ebs.t05.htm
- lmm 12y ago
  UK guy here; it's 5-6 weeks in addition to national holidays (which are normally 8 days/year).
- Avshalom 12y ago
  None of those are mandatory holidays in the US.
  - bpyne 12y ago
    Especially if you work in retail or the food/hospitality industries.
- dobbsbob 12y ago
  Highschool I worked for Lufthansa here in North America, it was common to see Germans fly over their bikes to go on a 2 month road trip while on paid vacation.
rayiner 12y ago
> I don't believe people can be super-productive more than 5 hours a day unless they work on something they are passionate about or are on drugs. I assume you're a software engineer? It's a particularly mentally intensive job, and I don't think your experience is easily generalizable. Jobs that don't require that level of creativity and where you can rely more on memorized processes are easier to do for extended periods of time. Say you're an insurance adjuster. Most of the claims that cross your desk are not unusual and do not require special handling. I bet you could do that productively for 8 hours a day.
- LaikaF 12y ago
  I can very easily be productive for 8 hours at my second job at a beer distributer. My other job doing email tech support I struggle to not take a five minute break every hour to clear my head. I still get bellow five hours a day of productivity because I have to sit in a ton of meetings on the off chance that I might need to say something or they just want more eyes on whatever they're doing.
JPKab 12y ago
I've noticed that a lot of the "busiest" people are the least productive. I suspect its a defense mechanism for people who, at least on a subconscious level, realize how unproductive and meaningless their job and/or output at a job really is. My wife's sister and her husband are both the two "busiest" people you will ever meet. Yet when I spend time with them, I'm reminded of the fact that neither of them is very intelligent (perhaps the wrong word, but put another way they have no depth of understanding about anything outside of their jobs in cargo transport, zero creativity or appreciation of any kind of art, and little to zero knowledge of world events) and they don't seem to progress any quicker in their careers. In fact, as my wife has noted, they have lagged behind us and all of our friends who enjoy a healthy work-life balance. There is nothing scientific here about this anecdote, of course. I think that perhaps the easiest way to be extremely busy all the time is to not step back, take a breath, and think about a more efficient way to accomplish task X. In a culture where status is attained through work, if you lack the creativity and skills to be a standout wizard who breezes through and builds cool shit that others think they could never do (translations: anyone on HN) then perhaps "busy" is the other way to earn some semblance of status.
- mreiland 12y ago
  maybe you should stop judging your wife's sister and her husband, and/or start being as critical of yourselves as you are of them.
  - JPKab 12y ago
    Perhaps I am judgmental towards them. Recently we had a big argument because they both saw nothing wrong with innocent people being wrongfully executed, and view it as a necessary evil to allow for guilty to be executed. The fact that they both told my wife that they feel art is a waste of time and that artists should all find better things to do didn't help me view them as remotely on our level. I'm very critical of myself. It is people who lack the capacity to be critical of themselves who act and think like they do. I am better than they are, and I'm not ashamed to admit it. I'm not better than them by anything given to me, but because I recognize that I suck and constantly seek to improve myself. They view themselves as amazing people. They aren't.
Dewie 12y ago
> It could also help individual people to cope with social anxieties by being "busy". I can't even tell you how incredibly "busy" I was during recess in high school. Also during free hours and any kind of down time... so much to do!
- jff 12y ago
  You had recess in high school?
  - Dewie 12y ago
    I had breaks. That's what I meant. What did you think I meant? Something other than that? Or where you just being a pedant?
    - jff 12y ago
      Sorry, I was being sincere. We had "recess" in elementary school, where we'd go out for 15-30 minutes and play. If you meant the 5 minute breaks between classes I don't remember what we called them, probably breaks. I wondered if you went to some odd high school that had breaks to go play in the fields.
      - Dewie 12y ago
        Sure, we had 5 minutes or whatever short breaks between classes. Though I said that I was "busy" during all periods of free time that I had to spend within the school (lunches, free hours, etc.), so I don't think the distinction matters in this case. :) (For that matter: I didn't really go to "high school", I'm just using that as the name for my school system's equivalent of year 11 to 13.)
0xdeadbeefbabe 12y ago
> It could also help individual people to cope with social anxieties by being "busy". Yes, and sometimes meetings serve only this purpose. For example, oh I'm sorry Mr. X is in a meeting that he has scheduled for every time you call.

by bitL 12y ago

tseabrooks 12y ago

Question on those 6 weeks. I've heard before that some countries include national holidays in there 5-6 week count. Is that the case here? Generally when Americans are listing their vacation days they are not including what they view as mandatory holidays (Memorial day, july 4th, thanksgiving, christmas, new years, etc). FWIW, I'm in the US and we have ~5-6 weeks vacation.

bitL 12y ago
I am currently in Germany, 6 weeks is basically a standard excluding holidays (which is up to 13 extra days depending on the state and weekend overlay as there are no bank holidays). So in the end you can end up with ~8 weeks. Minimum vacation days as specified by the law is 4 weeks. Most of my friends in the US start with 2 weeks, after a few years they get 3 weeks, then these are reset if they change the job, and if they take a vacation, they are either frowned upon or they have to be available to work on a moments notice. I find this utterly crazy.
- pc86 12y ago
  I have not, nor have I ever met anyone who has, been expected to work or even be available on a vacation. I've also never taken or been offered a job with less than 3 weeks vacation to start. Current job (been here for 2 months) is 25 paid days off plus ten or so holidays. This seems to be a common criticism of the US but I've been in the professional workforce for just about a decade and have never come across this. I've worked remotely, for small companies with ten employees and Fortune 500 companies. I just don't believe there are people taking jobs where they get 10 days off a year and are expected to answer a phone call from their boss on vacation, unless they are 1) interns; 2) non-professional jobs, service industry, etc; 3) at the very beginning of their career (I could see this happening with more predatory employers with the huge number of unemployed recent grads looking for works).
  - bpyne 12y ago
    I think it depends on different factors. My wife has the same experience as you - never had less than 3 weeks of vacation time. She's a policy analyst in the non-profit sector. I've been in IT as a software developer for 20+ years and have been with 8 different employers across different industrial sectors and ranging from startup to Fortune 500. Most employer changes set me back to 2 weeks. I know people who feel pressure to work on vacation. The pressure is very real and isn't always related to ambition on the part of those people. Usually they're being exploited by an ambitious manager who has a "hold" of some kind, e.g. exploited person has a child with 2 years left of college and can't afford to lose his/her job.
  - bitL 12y ago
    Well, 2 weeks were a starting offer from once the most valuable company on the planet for a senior SW engineer position in California, with automatic extension by 1 week after the first year, and another week after a promotion to a staff engineer. One Seattle-based eCommerce company forced you to keep pager with you all the times, even on a vacation, if you were an unlucky part of operations. This can't happen in most European countries, unless the company desperately wants to lose plenty of court cases. One member of my US family in the midwest worked in an unionized menial job with 1 week of paid vacation including sick days. The rest was unpaid.
alistairSH 12y ago
That 5-6 weeks is well outside he norm in the US. In my experience, to get that much leave, you have to work at the same company for 5+ years. And either be highly-paid white collar OR highly paid union. http://www.psmag.com/navigation/business-economics/the-united-states-is-last-among-advanced-countries-in-paid-vacations-and-holidays-63857/ http://www.psmag.com/navigation/business-economics/the-unite... http://www.bls.gov/news.release/ebs.t05.htm http://www.bls.gov/news.release/ebs.t05.htm
lmm 12y ago
UK guy here; it's 5-6 weeks in addition to national holidays (which are normally 8 days/year).
Avshalom 12y ago
None of those are mandatory holidays in the US.
- bpyne 12y ago
  Especially if you work in retail or the food/hospitality industries.
dobbsbob 12y ago
Highschool I worked for Lufthansa here in North America, it was common to see Germans fly over their bikes to go on a 2 month road trip while on paid vacation.

rayiner 12y ago

> I don't believe people can be super-productive more than 5 hours a day unless they work on something they are passionate about or are on drugs. I assume you're a software engineer? It's a particularly mentally intensive job, and I don't think your experience is easily generalizable. Jobs that don't require that level of creativity and where you can rely more on memorized processes are easier to do for extended periods of time. Say you're an insurance adjuster. Most of the claims that cross your desk are not unusual and do not require special handling. I bet you could do that productively for 8 hours a day.

LaikaF 12y ago
I can very easily be productive for 8 hours at my second job at a beer distributer. My other job doing email tech support I struggle to not take a five minute break every hour to clear my head. I still get bellow five hours a day of productivity because I have to sit in a ton of meetings on the off chance that I might need to say something or they just want more eyes on whatever they're doing.

JPKab 12y ago

I've noticed that a lot of the "busiest" people are the least productive. I suspect its a defense mechanism for people who, at least on a subconscious level, realize how unproductive and meaningless their job and/or output at a job really is. My wife's sister and her husband are both the two "busiest" people you will ever meet. Yet when I spend time with them, I'm reminded of the fact that neither of them is very intelligent (perhaps the wrong word, but put another way they have no depth of understanding about anything outside of their jobs in cargo transport, zero creativity or appreciation of any kind of art, and little to zero knowledge of world events) and they don't seem to progress any quicker in their careers. In fact, as my wife has noted, they have lagged behind us and all of our friends who enjoy a healthy work-life balance. There is nothing scientific here about this anecdote, of course. I think that perhaps the easiest way to be extremely busy all the time is to not step back, take a breath, and think about a more efficient way to accomplish task X. In a culture where status is attained through work, if you lack the creativity and skills to be a standout wizard who breezes through and builds cool shit that others think they could never do (translations: anyone on HN) then perhaps "busy" is the other way to earn some semblance of status.

mreiland 12y ago
maybe you should stop judging your wife's sister and her husband, and/or start being as critical of yourselves as you are of them.
- JPKab 12y ago
  Perhaps I am judgmental towards them. Recently we had a big argument because they both saw nothing wrong with innocent people being wrongfully executed, and view it as a necessary evil to allow for guilty to be executed. The fact that they both told my wife that they feel art is a waste of time and that artists should all find better things to do didn't help me view them as remotely on our level. I'm very critical of myself. It is people who lack the capacity to be critical of themselves who act and think like they do. I am better than they are, and I'm not ashamed to admit it. I'm not better than them by anything given to me, but because I recognize that I suck and constantly seek to improve myself. They view themselves as amazing people. They aren't.

Dewie 12y ago

> It could also help individual people to cope with social anxieties by being "busy". I can't even tell you how incredibly "busy" I was during recess in high school. Also during free hours and any kind of down time... so much to do!

jff 12y ago
You had recess in high school?
- Dewie 12y ago
  I had breaks. That's what I meant. What did you think I meant? Something other than that? Or where you just being a pedant?
  - jff 12y ago
    Sorry, I was being sincere. We had "recess" in elementary school, where we'd go out for 15-30 minutes and play. If you meant the 5 minute breaks between classes I don't remember what we called them, probably breaks. I wondered if you went to some odd high school that had breaks to go play in the fields.
    - Dewie 12y ago
      Sure, we had 5 minutes or whatever short breaks between classes. Though I said that I was "busy" during all periods of free time that I had to spend within the school (lunches, free hours, etc.), so I don't think the distinction matters in this case. :) (For that matter: I didn't really go to "high school", I'm just using that as the name for my school system's equivalent of year 11 to 13.)

0xdeadbeefbabe 12y ago

> It could also help individual people to cope with social anxieties by being "busy". Yes, and sometimes meetings serve only this purpose. For example, oh I'm sorry Mr. X is in a meeting that he has scheduled for every time you call.