5 ms·

It absolutely is not a load of rubbish. I have personally observed it many times. And I have spent a LOT of time observing. I don't claim to have "proof" howeve

by jqm 12y ago

It absolutely is not a load of rubbish. I have personally observed it many times. And I have spent a LOT of time observing. I don't claim to have "proof" however I know what I have seen. I also didn't say "reputable" (a strange word in this context). Also, every/most Casino does not engage in this but some do. Your claim "they wouldn't do this because they already have an edge" is just silly. Why wouldn't they take a chance to make more money? Especially since, as you say, "proof" is a bit hard. An accidental bump. That's all. No intentional cheating here. I would like to re-iterate my main point. This is something to watch for if you are a roulette player. If the table wobbles when you push against it... walk away.

jqm 12y ago
As evidence for what I say I will tell you I have won thousands of dollars at Roulette. Far beyond what one should win "by chance" which should be a negative number for the amount I have played. Things have changed a bit since then and I don't play anymore. If you start winning more than you should you become known. I will tell you that. And this changes things. For example, one technique I used was taking advantage of dealers who had skill placing the ball...yes, these do exist. At one Nevada casino in a smaller town I stayed for a few days and played very small amounts of money while watching the dealers. One Asian lady was very adept at placing the ball on the green zeros when she wanted to. So I went to her table and played $40 which I lost. Then I left and watched her while playing small amounts at the craps table. I saw her practice placing the ball on the green zeros 4 times in a row (not sure why she would have done this in public). I walked back to her table and placed some reasonable bets all over the board. As soon as she released the ball I put maximum bets on the green zeros. What do you know? I must have got lucky! I then collected my winnings and checked out. That bet more than paid for my trip. Roulette is not always as random as it is held up to be. No, I can't "prove it".
- TylerE 12y ago
  Frankly, I expect a certain level of proof that you have won long-term at Roulette. A session win/loss log would be sufficient. The house edge in roulette is huge. Anyone claiming to be a winner at roulette in the long term is either lying or delusional. An equivalent claim would be someone claiming to double their money in the stock market every year for years on end.
  - dred_blue 12y ago
    Would you like the actual log or the script that makes the log? See the point? "Anyone claiming to be a winner at roulette in the long term is either lying or delusional." Possibly but you don't know this. Besides he doesn't claim "over the long term" and states WHY he quit playing. "The house edge in roulette is huge." Yes. IF the game is random. Read the post above.
    - TylerE 12y ago
      It would still be more substantial than anything he has offered so far. To make an assertion that a game of roulette in a licensed casino is not random is in the realm of moon landing conspiracy. PS: I also think it's rather sad and transparent that you created a new shill account to reply to me.
      - jqm 12y ago
        Look, as I stated twice before, I don't claim to prove anything. If you chose to believe I am misrepresenting my experiences (motive?) that's fine. I understand. I'm just relating the results of a lot... and I do mean a lot (as in hundreds if not thousands of hours) of observation in hope it saves someone some money from the table bumping scam. I have seen drunks cleaned out with it more than a few times. But you can be "right" if it makes you feel good. You simply don't have my experience. Sorry.
        grkvlt 12y ago
        I don't think thousands of hours playing roulette places you in the 'rational and detached follower of the scientific method' camp, somehow
        jqm 12y ago
        Thanks for your opinion. Observation is observation and it makes one a bit of an expert. Was it "confirmation bias" and "delusion" when I saw a practicing dealer place the ball on the green zero 4 times in a row? Was it "imagination" when I took advantage of that and won a bunch of money? I have a lot of stories like this. You weren't there. You don't know. You don't have to believe me. If you want to take the time... go observe for yourself.
- jqm 12y ago
  During my roulette "career" which spanned 6 or 7 years I came across maybe 3 or 4 other people who had "figured the game out" to some extent. I never talked with them about it. I became obsessed with beating the game during this time. And I will attest that it can be done to a certain extent at certain times and places. Casinos are wiser now though I believe. They sometimes reverse the wheel direction between spins. They often use different sized balls each spin. This doesn't mean patterns don't exist. It just means they are much more complex and difficult. The easiest to take advantage of are those casinos which employee dealers who are able to aim the ball where they want. This cheating can be used against them. Lazy dealers are good too. They sometimes develop consistency in their throw and quite often the ball will land in a predictable area if you watch careful the position of the wheel when it is released. These were hard to find and even more so now. Here were my informal rules in case anyone is curious: 1) You have to know the wheel and sectors by heart. If you don't, you can't determine patterns when they arise. 2) Don't sit down. You are never going to play for more than a couple of spins. If you don't win, move on. If you do win don't push it. Don't let the eye in the sky observe a repeatable pattern from you. Salt your real bets with some decoy bets. 3) Don't gamble. If you can't determine a probable pattern, don't play. You don't play most of the time. 4) Watch for sectors that seem to follow other sectors. With enough observation you will begin to learn these. When the dealer picks up the ball and throws it a rhythm often develops. The point from which they pick the ball up is the last number. If they remove the ball from the wheel between throws... that isn't a table to play unless you are confident they are good at "aiming" (which is rare). These "follow sectors" are often consistent between dealers, casinos and tables when the pattern forms. As and example, 32 often comes after number 23 if a certain pattern is being formed. If you find that pattern... you have found a dealer in a rut. Time to lay down a bet or two based on other "follows" you know to be in the pattern. 5) Don't drink. You are working. But appearing to drink is cool. Appearing a bit tipsy even better. 6) Don't sit and stare at the table while observing. Walk casually by and glance at the number board. Look curiously as if you are trying to figure out how the game works. If there are some penny or nickle slots with a good view of the action you are in luck. Take a seat and slowly spend some pennies while observing. But my real advice? Don't waste your time. It's hard, Casinos are wiser now and opportunities less. If you do figure it out and push it they __will__ know who you are and you won't push it long before they take steps. When you go to the next casino surprise.... they will know who you are as well! Don't expect a sleepy dealer. For whatever it is worth.
chilldream 12y ago
If it's company policy, the employees have plenty of incentive to snitch to gaming boards. I used to hang out with a lot of casino dealers in Washington state and every one of them would sell out their boss that day if they were told to do something like this.
- jqm 12y ago
  You would think so. But I assure you, it occurs. It may be more the dealers themselves with the "casino" turning a blind eye. Maybe they themselves would face suspension of their licenses. Maybe ratting out a casino is not a good idea *looks over shoulder. I don't know.
  - chilldream 12y ago
    > It may be more the dealers themselves with the "casino" turning a blind eye. That strikes me as even less likely. Given that dealers are tipped from winning players, they wouldn't want to cheat in the house's favor unless they're also pocketing the extra winnings. This is the equivalent of overcharging customers and then skimming from the register, except the store's surveillance is better than most. FWIW, the one instance I have first-hand knowledge of someone being ratted out, it was the casino's owner. She asked a surveillance employee to destroy a tape and he sent it to the state Gaming Commission instead.
    - jqm 12y ago
      Ya, I don't know. I'm just relating what I've observed. And I spent a lot of time doing this observing. It was a sort of "second job" for a number of years. Probably more years than most people who post here have been able to drink beer. I know the game intimately and I have watched dealers who could point the ball where they wanted and watched the table bump scam. I guess I understand people being incredulous. I might be as well if I were not an "expert" on this particular topic. And I don't say expert proudly but rather with a bit of shame on a lot of wasted time and effort (although I am "up" in roulette it is hardly enough to account for these hours, and I am just as equally if not more "down" in other things. I tried to beat slots also with no luck. And of course poker which was probably about a wash and took a lot of time.) But... it did give me a new perspective on randomness. I think there is a lot less of "randomness" and a lot more of "patterns we don't perceive" in the world.
hatu 12y ago
Come on, you're presenting anecdotal evidence to prove that Roulette isn't statistically random with a built in mathematical house edge. It's just silly.
- dred_blue 12y ago
  There is a reason witnesses are important in courts. Because observation by others is evidence. Besides, he clearly states he isn't attempting to "prove" anything but only relating an account.

by jqm 12y ago

jqm 12y ago

As evidence for what I say I will tell you I have won thousands of dollars at Roulette. Far beyond what one should win "by chance" which should be a negative number for the amount I have played. Things have changed a bit since then and I don't play anymore. If you start winning more than you should you become known. I will tell you that. And this changes things. For example, one technique I used was taking advantage of dealers who had skill placing the ball...yes, these do exist. At one Nevada casino in a smaller town I stayed for a few days and played very small amounts of money while watching the dealers. One Asian lady was very adept at placing the ball on the green zeros when she wanted to. So I went to her table and played $40 which I lost. Then I left and watched her while playing small amounts at the craps table. I saw her practice placing the ball on the green zeros 4 times in a row (not sure why she would have done this in public). I walked back to her table and placed some reasonable bets all over the board. As soon as she released the ball I put maximum bets on the green zeros. What do you know? I must have got lucky! I then collected my winnings and checked out. That bet more than paid for my trip. Roulette is not always as random as it is held up to be. No, I can't "prove it".

TylerE 12y ago
Frankly, I expect a certain level of proof that you have won long-term at Roulette. A session win/loss log would be sufficient. The house edge in roulette is huge. Anyone claiming to be a winner at roulette in the long term is either lying or delusional. An equivalent claim would be someone claiming to double their money in the stock market every year for years on end.
- dred_blue 12y ago
  Would you like the actual log or the script that makes the log? See the point? "Anyone claiming to be a winner at roulette in the long term is either lying or delusional." Possibly but you don't know this. Besides he doesn't claim "over the long term" and states WHY he quit playing. "The house edge in roulette is huge." Yes. IF the game is random. Read the post above.
  - TylerE 12y ago
    It would still be more substantial than anything he has offered so far. To make an assertion that a game of roulette in a licensed casino is not random is in the realm of moon landing conspiracy. PS: I also think it's rather sad and transparent that you created a new shill account to reply to me.
    - jqm 12y ago
      Look, as I stated twice before, I don't claim to prove anything. If you chose to believe I am misrepresenting my experiences (motive?) that's fine. I understand. I'm just relating the results of a lot... and I do mean a lot (as in hundreds if not thousands of hours) of observation in hope it saves someone some money from the table bumping scam. I have seen drunks cleaned out with it more than a few times. But you can be "right" if it makes you feel good. You simply don't have my experience. Sorry.
      - grkvlt 12y ago
        I don't think thousands of hours playing roulette places you in the 'rational and detached follower of the scientific method' camp, somehow
        jqm 12y ago
        Thanks for your opinion. Observation is observation and it makes one a bit of an expert. Was it "confirmation bias" and "delusion" when I saw a practicing dealer place the ball on the green zero 4 times in a row? Was it "imagination" when I took advantage of that and won a bunch of money? I have a lot of stories like this. You weren't there. You don't know. You don't have to believe me. If you want to take the time... go observe for yourself.
jqm 12y ago
During my roulette "career" which spanned 6 or 7 years I came across maybe 3 or 4 other people who had "figured the game out" to some extent. I never talked with them about it. I became obsessed with beating the game during this time. And I will attest that it can be done to a certain extent at certain times and places. Casinos are wiser now though I believe. They sometimes reverse the wheel direction between spins. They often use different sized balls each spin. This doesn't mean patterns don't exist. It just means they are much more complex and difficult. The easiest to take advantage of are those casinos which employee dealers who are able to aim the ball where they want. This cheating can be used against them. Lazy dealers are good too. They sometimes develop consistency in their throw and quite often the ball will land in a predictable area if you watch careful the position of the wheel when it is released. These were hard to find and even more so now. Here were my informal rules in case anyone is curious: 1) You have to know the wheel and sectors by heart. If you don't, you can't determine patterns when they arise. 2) Don't sit down. You are never going to play for more than a couple of spins. If you don't win, move on. If you do win don't push it. Don't let the eye in the sky observe a repeatable pattern from you. Salt your real bets with some decoy bets. 3) Don't gamble. If you can't determine a probable pattern, don't play. You don't play most of the time. 4) Watch for sectors that seem to follow other sectors. With enough observation you will begin to learn these. When the dealer picks up the ball and throws it a rhythm often develops. The point from which they pick the ball up is the last number. If they remove the ball from the wheel between throws... that isn't a table to play unless you are confident they are good at "aiming" (which is rare). These "follow sectors" are often consistent between dealers, casinos and tables when the pattern forms. As and example, 32 often comes after number 23 if a certain pattern is being formed. If you find that pattern... you have found a dealer in a rut. Time to lay down a bet or two based on other "follows" you know to be in the pattern. 5) Don't drink. You are working. But appearing to drink is cool. Appearing a bit tipsy even better. 6) Don't sit and stare at the table while observing. Walk casually by and glance at the number board. Look curiously as if you are trying to figure out how the game works. If there are some penny or nickle slots with a good view of the action you are in luck. Take a seat and slowly spend some pennies while observing. But my real advice? Don't waste your time. It's hard, Casinos are wiser now and opportunities less. If you do figure it out and push it they __will__ know who you are and you won't push it long before they take steps. When you go to the next casino surprise.... they will know who you are as well! Don't expect a sleepy dealer. For whatever it is worth.

chilldream 12y ago

If it's company policy, the employees have plenty of incentive to snitch to gaming boards. I used to hang out with a lot of casino dealers in Washington state and every one of them would sell out their boss that day if they were told to do something like this.

jqm 12y ago
You would think so. But I assure you, it occurs. It may be more the dealers themselves with the "casino" turning a blind eye. Maybe they themselves would face suspension of their licenses. Maybe ratting out a casino is not a good idea *looks over shoulder. I don't know.
- chilldream 12y ago
  > It may be more the dealers themselves with the "casino" turning a blind eye. That strikes me as even less likely. Given that dealers are tipped from winning players, they wouldn't want to cheat in the house's favor unless they're also pocketing the extra winnings. This is the equivalent of overcharging customers and then skimming from the register, except the store's surveillance is better than most. FWIW, the one instance I have first-hand knowledge of someone being ratted out, it was the casino's owner. She asked a surveillance employee to destroy a tape and he sent it to the state Gaming Commission instead.
  - jqm 12y ago
    Ya, I don't know. I'm just relating what I've observed. And I spent a lot of time doing this observing. It was a sort of "second job" for a number of years. Probably more years than most people who post here have been able to drink beer. I know the game intimately and I have watched dealers who could point the ball where they wanted and watched the table bump scam. I guess I understand people being incredulous. I might be as well if I were not an "expert" on this particular topic. And I don't say expert proudly but rather with a bit of shame on a lot of wasted time and effort (although I am "up" in roulette it is hardly enough to account for these hours, and I am just as equally if not more "down" in other things. I tried to beat slots also with no luck. And of course poker which was probably about a wash and took a lot of time.) But... it did give me a new perspective on randomness. I think there is a lot less of "randomness" and a lot more of "patterns we don't perceive" in the world.

hatu 12y ago

Come on, you're presenting anecdotal evidence to prove that Roulette isn't statistically random with a built in mathematical house edge. It's just silly.

dred_blue 12y ago
There is a reason witnesses are important in courts. Because observation by others is evidence. Besides, he clearly states he isn't attempting to "prove" anything but only relating an account.