11 ms·

Heroin and cocaine both do really bad things to a very high proportion of the people who take them -- scrambling their brains to the point where they don't real

Heroin and cocaine both do really bad things to a very high proportion of the people who take them -- scrambling their brains to the point where they don't really care about anything except getting more drugs. They're not really comparable to alcohol or nicotine, or even to marijuana, in terms of the amount of harm they typically do to their users. As a libertarian I am very grudgingly in favour of drug legalization, but you can't deny the harm which would probably come from having all these drugs freely and cheaply available. I can't say for sure whether it would be greater or lesser than the current level of harm, but it would certainly be substantial.

mseebach 17y ago
> Heroin and cocaine both do really bad things to a very high proportion of the people who take them The very simple solution is to provide legal drugs for users who are documented addicts (and no-one else) in certified clinics at a very low price. Since most of the economy of illegal drug-dealing is based on recurring business (addicts), the illegal market for drugs would collapse -- drugs would simply be prohibitively expensive when the majority of clients run off to the much cheaper, cleaner and safer competetition. Also, the biggest problem with drugs aren't the drugs themselves, it's the crime that follows as users need to get money quick to get their next fix. Burglaries, robberies, muggings etc. -- most are perpetrated by drug addicts. This would be avoided. I'm pretty sure a secure system for dispensing the drugs in the clinic can be devised. After all, we can distribute large amounts of physical cash with few incidents, drugs shouldn't be much different. Heroin-ATMs, anyone? The addict "withdraws" one dosis pr. 24 hour period, authenticated by a retina-scan.
- alaskamiller 17y ago
  It will be gamed because the motivation is much greater than just money, it's to feed an addiction. Crime by crack addicts aren't the only problem, the self destructive behavior when you're addicted to heroin and cocaine are also dangerous. I'm libertarian in terms of drug decriminalization and all that but I don't think a segment of society will ever be able to deal with hard drugs in a responsible way like that.
  - mseebach 17y ago
    I'm sorry for the late reply, hope this reaches you anyway. First, the point of this is the decouple addiction from money, and with that from crimes of enrichment. I'm sure we can agree that addiction is the root of this issue? Second, this would only be offered to those already addicted. Once the illegal drug trading collapses, so will the "first hit for free" offers, since those are based on the expectation that the receiver will become addicted and be a returning customer. This is, as I understand, the primary way of getting addicted (very few would-be heroin users sit a home Thursday afternoon and decides that today is the day to try a hit). I agree that drug usage is destructive in so many way, and I've come to realize that my solution isn't really to help the users -- strategies to help the users have failed over and over again -- but rather to contain the problem, and cut the causes as close the root as possible. Once that part is complete, we can look at getting people into rehab -- which should also be more effective when you old neighbourhood isn't full of pushers whose business depends on getting you back in the habit.
absconditus 17y ago
"Judging by every metric, decriminalization in Portugal has been a resounding success," says Glenn Greenwald, an attorney, author and fluent Portuguese speaker, who conducted the research. "It has enabled the Portuguese government to manage and control the drug problem far better than virtually every other Western country does." http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.ht...
anamax 17y ago
> you can't deny the harm which would probably come from having all these drugs freely and cheaply available. Yes, there's harm from those drugs being available. However, criminalization hasn't reduced their availability. Criminalization is very expensive. What are the benefits that we're actually getting?
- gloob 17y ago
  * However, criminalization hasn't reduced their availability.* I suspect that if that were actually true, prices would be an awful lot lower.
  - anamax 17y ago
    Why? Like cars and booze, there are illegal drugs at pretty much every price point. (Crack created a lower price point option for cocaine.)

mseebach 17y ago

> Heroin and cocaine both do really bad things to a very high proportion of the people who take them The very simple solution is to provide legal drugs for users who are documented addicts (and no-one else) in certified clinics at a very low price. Since most of the economy of illegal drug-dealing is based on recurring business (addicts), the illegal market for drugs would collapse -- drugs would simply be prohibitively expensive when the majority of clients run off to the much cheaper, cleaner and safer competetition. Also, the biggest problem with drugs aren't the drugs themselves, it's the crime that follows as users need to get money quick to get their next fix. Burglaries, robberies, muggings etc. -- most are perpetrated by drug addicts. This would be avoided. I'm pretty sure a secure system for dispensing the drugs in the clinic can be devised. After all, we can distribute large amounts of physical cash with few incidents, drugs shouldn't be much different. Heroin-ATMs, anyone? The addict "withdraws" one dosis pr. 24 hour period, authenticated by a retina-scan.

alaskamiller 17y ago
It will be gamed because the motivation is much greater than just money, it's to feed an addiction. Crime by crack addicts aren't the only problem, the self destructive behavior when you're addicted to heroin and cocaine are also dangerous. I'm libertarian in terms of drug decriminalization and all that but I don't think a segment of society will ever be able to deal with hard drugs in a responsible way like that.
- mseebach 17y ago
  I'm sorry for the late reply, hope this reaches you anyway. First, the point of this is the decouple addiction from money, and with that from crimes of enrichment. I'm sure we can agree that addiction is the root of this issue? Second, this would only be offered to those already addicted. Once the illegal drug trading collapses, so will the "first hit for free" offers, since those are based on the expectation that the receiver will become addicted and be a returning customer. This is, as I understand, the primary way of getting addicted (very few would-be heroin users sit a home Thursday afternoon and decides that today is the day to try a hit). I agree that drug usage is destructive in so many way, and I've come to realize that my solution isn't really to help the users -- strategies to help the users have failed over and over again -- but rather to contain the problem, and cut the causes as close the root as possible. Once that part is complete, we can look at getting people into rehab -- which should also be more effective when you old neighbourhood isn't full of pushers whose business depends on getting you back in the habit.

absconditus 17y ago

"Judging by every metric, decriminalization in Portugal has been a resounding success," says Glenn Greenwald, an attorney, author and fluent Portuguese speaker, who conducted the research. "It has enabled the Portuguese government to manage and control the drug problem far better than virtually every other Western country does." http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.ht...

anamax 17y ago

> you can't deny the harm which would probably come from having all these drugs freely and cheaply available. Yes, there's harm from those drugs being available. However, criminalization hasn't reduced their availability. Criminalization is very expensive. What are the benefits that we're actually getting?

gloob 17y ago
* However, criminalization hasn't reduced their availability.* I suspect that if that were actually true, prices would be an awful lot lower.
- anamax 17y ago
  Why? Like cars and booze, there are illegal drugs at pretty much every price point. (Crack created a lower price point option for cocaine.)