3 ms·

Humor aside, it really concerns me that so much of the information in mainstream science news articles can mislead readers. More worrying is that it's often no

by garenp 12y ago

Humor aside, it really concerns me that so much of the information in mainstream science news articles can mislead readers. More worrying is that it's often not possible to persuade someone who is swayed in the wrong direction, because they just don't have the base level of knowledge to allow it. On this point I almost want to say that every person who graduates from High School ought to have gone through a rigorous class in logic and another in statistics. It's all well and good to say everyone should have "critical thinking" skills, but you can't get there without some pretty solid intellectual tools.

hueving 12y ago
>On this point I almost want to say that every person who graduates from High School ought to have gone through a rigorous class in logic and another in statistics. Those classes are above the bar for high-school graduation (unless you have an extremely weak definition of rigorous). If you require them, it will just mean lower graduation rates.
- glimcat 12y ago
  The problem with graduation rates is that we then optimize to increase that KPI as much as possible, at the expense of median education quality (which is nominally the social good we're trying to support). You do get more people with "the credential" - which you could also get by handing them out for a buck fifty at Walgreens, if that's what you really wanted to maximize. It's almost impossible to give politicians a hot-button campaign topic without them over-reducing the problem to a counter-productive KPI, which they will then tie funding to.
spikels 12y ago
Once someone becomes convinced of something it is often very difficult to change their mind despite logic and even strong evidence. I have noticed this even in my own thinking despite being aware of it. You become invested in an idea by your own thoughts and actions as well as statements to others. Then to change your mind you have to admit to yourself that you are wrong as well as to others who may still hold the mistaken belief. This can be unpleasant so many people just avoid it. Keep in mind that very few things are black and white so there is always some "reasoning" that can defend the incorrect belief even if it is very unlikely. And there are often people who benefit from the incorrect beliefs (you may disagree but I think the $5 billion US vitamin/supplement industry is a good example). While if everyone had excellent "critical thinking" tools it should help I'm skeptical this would overcome natural human biases such as pride. And perhaps it is a good thing that at least a few people disagree with any consensus no matter how strongly supported by logic and evidence.
- epochwolf 12y ago
  > You become invested in an idea by your own thoughts and actions as well as statements to others. While I've observed this is true for most people, it isn't true for everyone. I'd rather be correct than be right. It's one of the characteristics of people with a Myers-Briggs Type Indicator of INTJ. (And perhaps a few others.) I've also heard it called "strong opinions, weakly held" before. I'm pretty sure both those with this characteristic and those without it spent a fair amount of time being greatly annoyed with eachother.
  - bashinator 12y ago
    Related to your topic, there's a large body of criticism against MBTI. My understanding is that it's basically not used by anyone doing professional psychological work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers-Briggs_Type_Indicator#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers-Briggs_Type_Indicator#Cr...
morbius 12y ago
Another terrible example: Last year, a scientist, particular type of photon capture mechanism to the physics of lightsaber plasma. What was the response? TIME: "Scientists Finally Invent Real, Working Lightsabers" The Guardian: "Star Wars Lightsabers Finally Invented" There are some more examples by CBS and other newspapers, but the point still stands. Scientific journalism has become so misleading that you cannot feasibly trust it anymore. TIME is one of the absolute worst in terms of both real-world and scientific reporting; they sensationalize EVERYTHING. Whoever writes these abhorrent posts seriously needs to be fired. Saying that the observations of photon behavior in a cloud of atomized rubidium near absolute-zero equal inventing a lightsaber is completely absurd. It's stretched even further by the idiotic TIME headline manager who also felt the need to put the words "Real" and "Working" into the title. This goes beyond yellow journalism into straight-out lie territory. It's sad that somewhat decent sources like Al Jazeera get completely sidelined by the public in favor of these horrid news-reporting agencies that have the audacity to call themselves journalistic.
GregBuchholz 12y ago
>More worrying is that it's often not possible to persuade someone who is swayed in the wrong direction, because they just don't have the base level of knowledge to allow it. I think that may be oversimplifying things. Anyway, I liked chapter 5 of "Probability Theory: The Logic of Science" http://cdn.preterhuman.net/texts/science_and_technology/Probability%20Theory%20-%20The%20Logic%20Of%20Science.pdf http://cdn.preterhuman.net/texts/science_and_technology/Prob... ...the impatient should skip to the last paragraph on page 129 to get to the gist of how rational people can come to different conclusions when presented with the same data.

by garenp 12y ago

hueving 12y ago

>On this point I almost want to say that every person who graduates from High School ought to have gone through a rigorous class in logic and another in statistics. Those classes are above the bar for high-school graduation (unless you have an extremely weak definition of rigorous). If you require them, it will just mean lower graduation rates.

glimcat 12y ago
The problem with graduation rates is that we then optimize to increase that KPI as much as possible, at the expense of median education quality (which is nominally the social good we're trying to support). You do get more people with "the credential" - which you could also get by handing them out for a buck fifty at Walgreens, if that's what you really wanted to maximize. It's almost impossible to give politicians a hot-button campaign topic without them over-reducing the problem to a counter-productive KPI, which they will then tie funding to.

spikels 12y ago

Once someone becomes convinced of something it is often very difficult to change their mind despite logic and even strong evidence. I have noticed this even in my own thinking despite being aware of it. You become invested in an idea by your own thoughts and actions as well as statements to others. Then to change your mind you have to admit to yourself that you are wrong as well as to others who may still hold the mistaken belief. This can be unpleasant so many people just avoid it. Keep in mind that very few things are black and white so there is always some "reasoning" that can defend the incorrect belief even if it is very unlikely. And there are often people who benefit from the incorrect beliefs (you may disagree but I think the $5 billion US vitamin/supplement industry is a good example). While if everyone had excellent "critical thinking" tools it should help I'm skeptical this would overcome natural human biases such as pride. And perhaps it is a good thing that at least a few people disagree with any consensus no matter how strongly supported by logic and evidence.

epochwolf 12y ago
> You become invested in an idea by your own thoughts and actions as well as statements to others. While I've observed this is true for most people, it isn't true for everyone. I'd rather be correct than be right. It's one of the characteristics of people with a Myers-Briggs Type Indicator of INTJ. (And perhaps a few others.) I've also heard it called "strong opinions, weakly held" before. I'm pretty sure both those with this characteristic and those without it spent a fair amount of time being greatly annoyed with eachother.
- bashinator 12y ago
  Related to your topic, there's a large body of criticism against MBTI. My understanding is that it's basically not used by anyone doing professional psychological work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers-Briggs_Type_Indicator#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers-Briggs_Type_Indicator#Cr...

morbius 12y ago

Another terrible example: Last year, a scientist, particular type of photon capture mechanism to the physics of lightsaber plasma. What was the response? TIME: "Scientists Finally Invent Real, Working Lightsabers" The Guardian: "Star Wars Lightsabers Finally Invented" There are some more examples by CBS and other newspapers, but the point still stands. Scientific journalism has become so misleading that you cannot feasibly trust it anymore. TIME is one of the absolute worst in terms of both real-world and scientific reporting; they sensationalize EVERYTHING. Whoever writes these abhorrent posts seriously needs to be fired. Saying that the observations of photon behavior in a cloud of atomized rubidium near absolute-zero equal inventing a lightsaber is completely absurd. It's stretched even further by the idiotic TIME headline manager who also felt the need to put the words "Real" and "Working" into the title. This goes beyond yellow journalism into straight-out lie territory. It's sad that somewhat decent sources like Al Jazeera get completely sidelined by the public in favor of these horrid news-reporting agencies that have the audacity to call themselves journalistic.

GregBuchholz 12y ago

>More worrying is that it's often not possible to persuade someone who is swayed in the wrong direction, because they just don't have the base level of knowledge to allow it. I think that may be oversimplifying things. Anyway, I liked chapter 5 of "Probability Theory: The Logic of Science" http://cdn.preterhuman.net/texts/science_and_technology/Probability%20Theory%20-%20The%20Logic%20Of%20Science.pdf http://cdn.preterhuman.net/texts/science_and_technology/Prob... ...the impatient should skip to the last paragraph on page 129 to get to the gist of how rational people can come to different conclusions when presented with the same data.