5 ms·

Roulette is often held up as an example of "random chance" but this is not entirely true. There are on occasions patterns in Roulette, especially with certain

by jqm 12y ago

Roulette is often held up as an example of "random chance" but this is not entirely true. There are on occasions patterns in Roulette, especially with certain dealers. In addition, there is a little trick casinos sometimes employ. They loosen the legs on the table to the point it wobbles slightly. The dealer will then lean against the table and watch as the ball is about to drop. They can then pop the ball out of an undesired slot by a well placed shove of the hip. Just something to watch out for if you are gambler. I firmly believe just like in computing, the entire concept of "random" depends mostly on ones frame of reference.

TylerE 12y ago
That's a load of rubbish submitted completely without any sort of proof. That might have gone on in a back-alley speakeasy in the Prohibition era, but in any sort of reputable casino - not a chance. The casino has no need to cheat at roulette. They have a built in edge.
- jqm 12y ago
  It absolutely is not a load of rubbish. I have personally observed it many times. And I have spent a LOT of time observing. I don't claim to have "proof" however I know what I have seen. I also didn't say "reputable" (a strange word in this context). Also, every/most Casino does not engage in this but some do. Your claim "they wouldn't do this because they already have an edge" is just silly. Why wouldn't they take a chance to make more money? Especially since, as you say, "proof" is a bit hard. An accidental bump. That's all. No intentional cheating here. I would like to re-iterate my main point. This is something to watch for if you are a roulette player. If the table wobbles when you push against it... walk away.
  - jqm 12y ago
    As evidence for what I say I will tell you I have won thousands of dollars at Roulette. Far beyond what one should win "by chance" which should be a negative number for the amount I have played. Things have changed a bit since then and I don't play anymore. If you start winning more than you should you become known. I will tell you that. And this changes things. For example, one technique I used was taking advantage of dealers who had skill placing the ball...yes, these do exist. At one Nevada casino in a smaller town I stayed for a few days and played very small amounts of money while watching the dealers. One Asian lady was very adept at placing the ball on the green zeros when she wanted to. So I went to her table and played $40 which I lost. Then I left and watched her while playing small amounts at the craps table. I saw her practice placing the ball on the green zeros 4 times in a row (not sure why she would have done this in public). I walked back to her table and placed some reasonable bets all over the board. As soon as she released the ball I put maximum bets on the green zeros. What do you know? I must have got lucky! I then collected my winnings and checked out. That bet more than paid for my trip. Roulette is not always as random as it is held up to be. No, I can't "prove it".
    - TylerE 12y ago
      Frankly, I expect a certain level of proof that you have won long-term at Roulette. A session win/loss log would be sufficient. The house edge in roulette is huge. Anyone claiming to be a winner at roulette in the long term is either lying or delusional. An equivalent claim would be someone claiming to double their money in the stock market every year for years on end.
      - dred_blue 12y ago
        Would you like the actual log or the script that makes the log? See the point? "Anyone claiming to be a winner at roulette in the long term is either lying or delusional." Possibly but you don't know this. Besides he doesn't claim "over the long term" and states WHY he quit playing. "The house edge in roulette is huge." Yes. IF the game is random. Read the post above.
        TylerE 12y ago
        It would still be more substantial than anything he has offered so far. To make an assertion that a game of roulette in a licensed casino is not random is in the realm of moon landing conspiracy. PS: I also think it's rather sad and transparent that you created a new shill account to reply to me.
        jqm 12y ago
        Look, as I stated twice before, I don't claim to prove anything. If you chose to believe I am misrepresenting my experiences (motive?) that's fine. I understand. I'm just relating the results of a lot... and I do mean a lot (as in hundreds if not thousands of hours) of observation in hope it saves someone some money from the table bumping scam. I have seen drunks cleaned out with it more than a few times. But you can be "right" if it makes you feel good. You simply don't have my experience. Sorry.
        grkvlt 12y ago
        I don't think thousands of hours playing roulette places you in the 'rational and detached follower of the scientific method' camp, somehow
  - chilldream 12y ago
    If it's company policy, the employees have plenty of incentive to snitch to gaming boards. I used to hang out with a lot of casino dealers in Washington state and every one of them would sell out their boss that day if they were told to do something like this.
    - jqm 12y ago
      You would think so. But I assure you, it occurs. It may be more the dealers themselves with the "casino" turning a blind eye. Maybe they themselves would face suspension of their licenses. Maybe ratting out a casino is not a good idea *looks over shoulder. I don't know.
      - chilldream 12y ago
        > It may be more the dealers themselves with the "casino" turning a blind eye. That strikes me as even less likely. Given that dealers are tipped from winning players, they wouldn't want to cheat in the house's favor unless they're also pocketing the extra winnings. This is the equivalent of overcharging customers and then skimming from the register, except the store's surveillance is better than most. FWIW, the one instance I have first-hand knowledge of someone being ratted out, it was the casino's owner. She asked a surveillance employee to destroy a tape and he sent it to the state Gaming Commission instead.
        jqm 12y ago
        Ya, I don't know. I'm just relating what I've observed. And I spent a lot of time doing this observing. It was a sort of "second job" for a number of years. Probably more years than most people who post here have been able to drink beer. I know the game intimately and I have watched dealers who could point the ball where they wanted and watched the table bump scam. I guess I understand people being incredulous. I might be as well if I were not an "expert" on this particular topic. And I don't say expert proudly but rather with a bit of shame on a lot of wasted time and effort (although I am "up" in roulette it is hardly enough to account for these hours, and I am just as equally if not more "down" in other things. I tried to beat slots also with no luck. And of course poker which was probably about a wash and took a lot of time.) But... it did give me a new perspective on randomness. I think there is a lot less of "randomness" and a lot more of "patterns we don't perceive" in the world.
  - hatu 12y ago
    Come on, you're presenting anecdotal evidence to prove that Roulette isn't statistically random with a built in mathematical house edge. It's just silly.
    - dred_blue 12y ago
      There is a reason witnesses are important in courts. Because observation by others is evidence. Besides, he clearly states he isn't attempting to "prove" anything but only relating an account.
- steven2012 12y ago
  You would be a fool if you believe casinos don't try to go above and beyond their statistical edge to make money. Case in point: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/wynns-abnormal-lucky-streak-baffles-analysts http://www.marketwatch.com/story/wynns-abnormal-lucky-streak... I think we all know how a game with a statistical edge to the house has 9 straight quarters of larger-than-expected wins for the casino.
  - jqm 12y ago
    One important point about roulette is this... On slot machines the house will pull tricks. For example, they will have payouts more likely at certain times than others. There are others as well. But in total, the machines must statistically pay out a certain percentage and this is checked by third parties. Roulette? I don't know how they would ever insure this. It's a good place to take advantage if the house is inclined to do so.

by jqm 12y ago

TylerE 12y ago

That's a load of rubbish submitted completely without any sort of proof. That might have gone on in a back-alley speakeasy in the Prohibition era, but in any sort of reputable casino - not a chance. The casino has no need to cheat at roulette. They have a built in edge.

jqm 12y ago
It absolutely is not a load of rubbish. I have personally observed it many times. And I have spent a LOT of time observing. I don't claim to have "proof" however I know what I have seen. I also didn't say "reputable" (a strange word in this context). Also, every/most Casino does not engage in this but some do. Your claim "they wouldn't do this because they already have an edge" is just silly. Why wouldn't they take a chance to make more money? Especially since, as you say, "proof" is a bit hard. An accidental bump. That's all. No intentional cheating here. I would like to re-iterate my main point. This is something to watch for if you are a roulette player. If the table wobbles when you push against it... walk away.
- jqm 12y ago
  As evidence for what I say I will tell you I have won thousands of dollars at Roulette. Far beyond what one should win "by chance" which should be a negative number for the amount I have played. Things have changed a bit since then and I don't play anymore. If you start winning more than you should you become known. I will tell you that. And this changes things. For example, one technique I used was taking advantage of dealers who had skill placing the ball...yes, these do exist. At one Nevada casino in a smaller town I stayed for a few days and played very small amounts of money while watching the dealers. One Asian lady was very adept at placing the ball on the green zeros when she wanted to. So I went to her table and played $40 which I lost. Then I left and watched her while playing small amounts at the craps table. I saw her practice placing the ball on the green zeros 4 times in a row (not sure why she would have done this in public). I walked back to her table and placed some reasonable bets all over the board. As soon as she released the ball I put maximum bets on the green zeros. What do you know? I must have got lucky! I then collected my winnings and checked out. That bet more than paid for my trip. Roulette is not always as random as it is held up to be. No, I can't "prove it".
  - TylerE 12y ago
    Frankly, I expect a certain level of proof that you have won long-term at Roulette. A session win/loss log would be sufficient. The house edge in roulette is huge. Anyone claiming to be a winner at roulette in the long term is either lying or delusional. An equivalent claim would be someone claiming to double their money in the stock market every year for years on end.
    - dred_blue 12y ago
      Would you like the actual log or the script that makes the log? See the point? "Anyone claiming to be a winner at roulette in the long term is either lying or delusional." Possibly but you don't know this. Besides he doesn't claim "over the long term" and states WHY he quit playing. "The house edge in roulette is huge." Yes. IF the game is random. Read the post above.
      - TylerE 12y ago
        It would still be more substantial than anything he has offered so far. To make an assertion that a game of roulette in a licensed casino is not random is in the realm of moon landing conspiracy. PS: I also think it's rather sad and transparent that you created a new shill account to reply to me.
        jqm 12y ago
        Look, as I stated twice before, I don't claim to prove anything. If you chose to believe I am misrepresenting my experiences (motive?) that's fine. I understand. I'm just relating the results of a lot... and I do mean a lot (as in hundreds if not thousands of hours) of observation in hope it saves someone some money from the table bumping scam. I have seen drunks cleaned out with it more than a few times. But you can be "right" if it makes you feel good. You simply don't have my experience. Sorry.
        grkvlt 12y ago
        I don't think thousands of hours playing roulette places you in the 'rational and detached follower of the scientific method' camp, somehow
- chilldream 12y ago
  If it's company policy, the employees have plenty of incentive to snitch to gaming boards. I used to hang out with a lot of casino dealers in Washington state and every one of them would sell out their boss that day if they were told to do something like this.
  - jqm 12y ago
    You would think so. But I assure you, it occurs. It may be more the dealers themselves with the "casino" turning a blind eye. Maybe they themselves would face suspension of their licenses. Maybe ratting out a casino is not a good idea *looks over shoulder. I don't know.
    - chilldream 12y ago
      > It may be more the dealers themselves with the "casino" turning a blind eye. That strikes me as even less likely. Given that dealers are tipped from winning players, they wouldn't want to cheat in the house's favor unless they're also pocketing the extra winnings. This is the equivalent of overcharging customers and then skimming from the register, except the store's surveillance is better than most. FWIW, the one instance I have first-hand knowledge of someone being ratted out, it was the casino's owner. She asked a surveillance employee to destroy a tape and he sent it to the state Gaming Commission instead.
      - jqm 12y ago
        Ya, I don't know. I'm just relating what I've observed. And I spent a lot of time doing this observing. It was a sort of "second job" for a number of years. Probably more years than most people who post here have been able to drink beer. I know the game intimately and I have watched dealers who could point the ball where they wanted and watched the table bump scam. I guess I understand people being incredulous. I might be as well if I were not an "expert" on this particular topic. And I don't say expert proudly but rather with a bit of shame on a lot of wasted time and effort (although I am "up" in roulette it is hardly enough to account for these hours, and I am just as equally if not more "down" in other things. I tried to beat slots also with no luck. And of course poker which was probably about a wash and took a lot of time.) But... it did give me a new perspective on randomness. I think there is a lot less of "randomness" and a lot more of "patterns we don't perceive" in the world.
- hatu 12y ago
  Come on, you're presenting anecdotal evidence to prove that Roulette isn't statistically random with a built in mathematical house edge. It's just silly.
  - dred_blue 12y ago
    There is a reason witnesses are important in courts. Because observation by others is evidence. Besides, he clearly states he isn't attempting to "prove" anything but only relating an account.
steven2012 12y ago
You would be a fool if you believe casinos don't try to go above and beyond their statistical edge to make money. Case in point: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/wynns-abnormal-lucky-streak-baffles-analysts http://www.marketwatch.com/story/wynns-abnormal-lucky-streak... I think we all know how a game with a statistical edge to the house has 9 straight quarters of larger-than-expected wins for the casino.
- jqm 12y ago
  One important point about roulette is this... On slot machines the house will pull tricks. For example, they will have payouts more likely at certain times than others. There are others as well. But in total, the machines must statistically pay out a certain percentage and this is checked by third parties. Roulette? I don't know how they would ever insure this. It's a good place to take advantage if the house is inclined to do so.