4 ms·

The FARC in Columbia and the war lords in Afghanistan are all rich because a bunch of baby boomers can't bare the thought of legalizing drugs. Please someone co

The FARC in Columbia and the war lords in Afghanistan are all rich because a bunch of baby boomers can't bare the thought of legalizing drugs. Please someone contradict me and make a more reasoned argument. I am too pissed off to think of anything better.

patio11 17y ago
Please someone contradict me and make a more reasoned argument. The FARC sells cocaine. The Afghan warlords sell heroin. There is no constellation of American political interests for which "Legalize cocaine and heroin" is even remotely conceivable as an achievable policy option. Incidentally, no matter what you legalize, smuggling remains a viable option for whatever it is you don't. FARC could just as easily be the world's largest kiddie porn or sex slave ring. Afghanistan could sell slaves. (I am not speaking hypothetically. There are nations which do both. A willingness to do evil plus a local monopoly on coercive force makes for a very profitable combination.)
- bravura 17y ago
  Your argument is specious. The total addressable market for heroin and cocaine consumption is demonstrably high. Kiddie porn demand will never reach this level, and hiding a sex slave in your house is difficult.
  - nandemo 17y ago
    Funny that you say that. In Japan there's a whole (legal) industry that would be probably classified as "kiddie porn" distribution in US. It's certainly bigger than the local cocaine and heroine market.
    - biohacker42 17y ago
      What's legal in Japan creeps me out, but what's illegal in the US is often silly.
      - sho 17y ago
        You'll be happy to know that freedom of expression is slowly being crushed in Japan, just like everywhere else, so you won't have to feel creeped out much longer. http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2009/08/21/un-demands-hentai-ban/ http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2009/08/21/un-demands-hentai-b... (possibly NSFW)
        sketerpot 17y ago
        The UN's obscure subdepartments can demand, but Japan doesn't have to comply. And considering the size of the market for hentai, I don't think it's going to go away any time soon.
    - jibiki 17y ago
      > (legal) Not in the de jure sense, surely? http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=630032 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=630032
- crsmith 17y ago
  This is one of the main points right wing pundits make against legalizing pot too. I wonder what bootleggers started to sell after alcohol was legalized in the US.
- kragen 17y ago
  You know, Portugal did decriminalize cocaine and heroin use five years ago, and it seems to be effective.
  - gloob 17y ago
    Whether or not a given measure is effective has little to do with whether it is an achievable goal in the U.S. political system.
    - kragen 17y ago
      Little, but not nothing.
- rms 17y ago
  I'm sure the Afghan warlords would be happy to sell morphine or codeine if they could sell on the legitimate international opiate market. However, they're not allowed and this dramatically increases the price of medical opium.
tokenadult 17y ago
As a factual matter, lots of Baby Boomers can bear the thought of legalizing drugs. Most HN participants are too young to realize that the Baby Boom generation is still rather young compared to their living parents, who are very influential in politics because they turn out to vote.
theblackbox 17y ago
Just found some interesting stuff about the decriminalisation of illicit drugs in Portugal in 2001, seems to be doing them a great deal of good. But there was mention that NO country has ever rationally considered legalisation as this would open up an economy and a power hierarchy the likes of which the world has never seen (hyperbole, yes, but I think we could all imagine the darker side of a legal drugs industry. Off the top of my head, the vast sums of money that can be made would cause a global gold rush where "Prospectors" vs. "Indyuns" would be woefully unbalanced. The "Indyuns" are already there, have assets invested, have militias and are less than ethical business people... bad medicine.)
- patio11 17y ago
  I think we could all imagine the darker side of a legal drugs industry Think of a crack resurgence in the inner city powered by a marketing campaign strong enough to make Nike envious, market penetration approaching that of television, and the resulting decision of middle class America to essentially write them off. See, for example, alcohol on Indian reservations.
  - euroclydon 17y ago
    Yeah? Like all those TV ads for liquor?
  - biohacker42 17y ago
    I don't think the availability of alcohol is the main reason for alcoholism rates in Indian reservations. There's that whole reservation aspect of it. And as far as inner city drugs go, they might as well be legal given how easy it is to get them. Most people wouldn't do drugs even with Nike like advertising and those who do get hooked could get it legally. Wouldn't steal from their own mother to buy it, wouldn't support the Taliban.
- anamax 17y ago
  > I think we could all imagine the darker side of a legal drugs industry. Off the top of my head, the vast sums of money If you're going to "imagine" a legal drugs industry, shouldn't it be things that aren't true of the illegal one that we have now? Illegal drugs are universally available. They are well marketed. However, the local Coors and Bud distributors rarely shoot at one another. And, when their customers go broke, neither one of them kills said customers.
hughprime 17y ago
Heroin and cocaine both do really bad things to a very high proportion of the people who take them -- scrambling their brains to the point where they don't really care about anything except getting more drugs. They're not really comparable to alcohol or nicotine, or even to marijuana, in terms of the amount of harm they typically do to their users. As a libertarian I am very grudgingly in favour of drug legalization, but you can't deny the harm which would probably come from having all these drugs freely and cheaply available. I can't say for sure whether it would be greater or lesser than the current level of harm, but it would certainly be substantial.
- mseebach 17y ago
  > Heroin and cocaine both do really bad things to a very high proportion of the people who take them The very simple solution is to provide legal drugs for users who are documented addicts (and no-one else) in certified clinics at a very low price. Since most of the economy of illegal drug-dealing is based on recurring business (addicts), the illegal market for drugs would collapse -- drugs would simply be prohibitively expensive when the majority of clients run off to the much cheaper, cleaner and safer competetition. Also, the biggest problem with drugs aren't the drugs themselves, it's the crime that follows as users need to get money quick to get their next fix. Burglaries, robberies, muggings etc. -- most are perpetrated by drug addicts. This would be avoided. I'm pretty sure a secure system for dispensing the drugs in the clinic can be devised. After all, we can distribute large amounts of physical cash with few incidents, drugs shouldn't be much different. Heroin-ATMs, anyone? The addict "withdraws" one dosis pr. 24 hour period, authenticated by a retina-scan.
  - alaskamiller 17y ago
    It will be gamed because the motivation is much greater than just money, it's to feed an addiction. Crime by crack addicts aren't the only problem, the self destructive behavior when you're addicted to heroin and cocaine are also dangerous. I'm libertarian in terms of drug decriminalization and all that but I don't think a segment of society will ever be able to deal with hard drugs in a responsible way like that.

patio11 17y ago

Please someone contradict me and make a more reasoned argument. The FARC sells cocaine. The Afghan warlords sell heroin. There is no constellation of American political interests for which "Legalize cocaine and heroin" is even remotely conceivable as an achievable policy option. Incidentally, no matter what you legalize, smuggling remains a viable option for whatever it is you don't. FARC could just as easily be the world's largest kiddie porn or sex slave ring. Afghanistan could sell slaves. (I am not speaking hypothetically. There are nations which do both. A willingness to do evil plus a local monopoly on coercive force makes for a very profitable combination.)

bravura 17y ago
Your argument is specious. The total addressable market for heroin and cocaine consumption is demonstrably high. Kiddie porn demand will never reach this level, and hiding a sex slave in your house is difficult.
- nandemo 17y ago
  Funny that you say that. In Japan there's a whole (legal) industry that would be probably classified as "kiddie porn" distribution in US. It's certainly bigger than the local cocaine and heroine market.
  - biohacker42 17y ago
    What's legal in Japan creeps me out, but what's illegal in the US is often silly.
    - sho 17y ago
      You'll be happy to know that freedom of expression is slowly being crushed in Japan, just like everywhere else, so you won't have to feel creeped out much longer. http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2009/08/21/un-demands-hentai-ban/ http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2009/08/21/un-demands-hentai-b... (possibly NSFW)
      - sketerpot 17y ago
        The UN's obscure subdepartments can demand, but Japan doesn't have to comply. And considering the size of the market for hentai, I don't think it's going to go away any time soon.
  - jibiki 17y ago
    > (legal) Not in the de jure sense, surely? http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=630032 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=630032
crsmith 17y ago
This is one of the main points right wing pundits make against legalizing pot too. I wonder what bootleggers started to sell after alcohol was legalized in the US.
kragen 17y ago
You know, Portugal did decriminalize cocaine and heroin use five years ago, and it seems to be effective.
- gloob 17y ago
  Whether or not a given measure is effective has little to do with whether it is an achievable goal in the U.S. political system.
  - kragen 17y ago
    Little, but not nothing.
rms 17y ago
I'm sure the Afghan warlords would be happy to sell morphine or codeine if they could sell on the legitimate international opiate market. However, they're not allowed and this dramatically increases the price of medical opium.

tokenadult 17y ago

As a factual matter, lots of Baby Boomers can bear the thought of legalizing drugs. Most HN participants are too young to realize that the Baby Boom generation is still rather young compared to their living parents, who are very influential in politics because they turn out to vote.

theblackbox 17y ago

Just found some interesting stuff about the decriminalisation of illicit drugs in Portugal in 2001, seems to be doing them a great deal of good. But there was mention that NO country has ever rationally considered legalisation as this would open up an economy and a power hierarchy the likes of which the world has never seen (hyperbole, yes, but I think we could all imagine the darker side of a legal drugs industry. Off the top of my head, the vast sums of money that can be made would cause a global gold rush where "Prospectors" vs. "Indyuns" would be woefully unbalanced. The "Indyuns" are already there, have assets invested, have militias and are less than ethical business people... bad medicine.)

patio11 17y ago
I think we could all imagine the darker side of a legal drugs industry Think of a crack resurgence in the inner city powered by a marketing campaign strong enough to make Nike envious, market penetration approaching that of television, and the resulting decision of middle class America to essentially write them off. See, for example, alcohol on Indian reservations.
- euroclydon 17y ago
  Yeah? Like all those TV ads for liquor?
- biohacker42 17y ago
  I don't think the availability of alcohol is the main reason for alcoholism rates in Indian reservations. There's that whole reservation aspect of it. And as far as inner city drugs go, they might as well be legal given how easy it is to get them. Most people wouldn't do drugs even with Nike like advertising and those who do get hooked could get it legally. Wouldn't steal from their own mother to buy it, wouldn't support the Taliban.
anamax 17y ago
> I think we could all imagine the darker side of a legal drugs industry. Off the top of my head, the vast sums of money If you're going to "imagine" a legal drugs industry, shouldn't it be things that aren't true of the illegal one that we have now? Illegal drugs are universally available. They are well marketed. However, the local Coors and Bud distributors rarely shoot at one another. And, when their customers go broke, neither one of them kills said customers.

hughprime 17y ago

Heroin and cocaine both do really bad things to a very high proportion of the people who take them -- scrambling their brains to the point where they don't really care about anything except getting more drugs. They're not really comparable to alcohol or nicotine, or even to marijuana, in terms of the amount of harm they typically do to their users. As a libertarian I am very grudgingly in favour of drug legalization, but you can't deny the harm which would probably come from having all these drugs freely and cheaply available. I can't say for sure whether it would be greater or lesser than the current level of harm, but it would certainly be substantial.

mseebach 17y ago
> Heroin and cocaine both do really bad things to a very high proportion of the people who take them The very simple solution is to provide legal drugs for users who are documented addicts (and no-one else) in certified clinics at a very low price. Since most of the economy of illegal drug-dealing is based on recurring business (addicts), the illegal market for drugs would collapse -- drugs would simply be prohibitively expensive when the majority of clients run off to the much cheaper, cleaner and safer competetition. Also, the biggest problem with drugs aren't the drugs themselves, it's the crime that follows as users need to get money quick to get their next fix. Burglaries, robberies, muggings etc. -- most are perpetrated by drug addicts. This would be avoided. I'm pretty sure a secure system for dispensing the drugs in the clinic can be devised. After all, we can distribute large amounts of physical cash with few incidents, drugs shouldn't be much different. Heroin-ATMs, anyone? The addict "withdraws" one dosis pr. 24 hour period, authenticated by a retina-scan.
- alaskamiller 17y ago
  It will be gamed because the motivation is much greater than just money, it's to feed an addiction. Crime by crack addicts aren't the only problem, the self destructive behavior when you're addicted to heroin and cocaine are also dangerous. I'm libertarian in terms of drug decriminalization and all that but I don't think a segment of society will ever be able to deal with hard drugs in a responsible way like that.