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"My dear Daughter, Wait for me." Of all the things that might happen, much as we'd like it to be different, I can guarantee that this is one which won't happen

"My dear Daughter, Wait for me." Of all the things that might happen, much as we'd like it to be different, I can guarantee that this is one which won't happen. However upsetting it may be now (or looking back in the future), time isn't going to wait for you and all those firsts, all those events and experiences you miss, won't wait and won't happen again. We tell ourselves it isn't a choice but for many of us it is. Most of us could earn enough money to support our family comfortably in a relatively regular 9 - 5 job. We might not be personally as satisfied and we might not be as financially well off, but we can choose one possible version of our life over another. It's absolutely fair to say that you have to balance the needs of being a "good" father (which let's remember is a subjective term in many ways), against your own personal needs (and indeed the needs of your partner, the rest of your family and so on), but most people reading this board are fortunate enough that there genuinely is an element of choice. No-one should tell you that working long hours so your child need never go without (or so you're personally happy and the time you spend with them you do so without resentment) is better or worse than coaching their sports team and being there every bath time, but whatever you decide to do, I think the most important thing is to accept that you're doing it because you made a conscious decision - ultimately that's going to be the only way you'll be at peace with it. And if you haven't made a conscious decision, the for heavens' sake sit down with your other half and do so. Of all the outcomes, doing what you're doing without thinking about what you want and what works best for your family maybe the only truly bad one.

lmg643 12y ago
I would agree with this. People have a way of heavily discounting the present in favor of the uncertain future. It becomes a habit, almost an addiction, to medicate feelings in the present (FUD - perhaps their anxiety over being a parent, even). A friend of mine uses the term "future tripping" - I like it. I will give this guy a lot of credit for honesty. It's tempting to pretend that starting a company is something you are doing solely to provide a better life for others, when the truth is it is just as often, if not more so, for the self-actualization need of the founder. From the wife/kid's perspective - they want you to be happy, but they also want you to be present and engaged. From that perspective, what you do to make the money isn't so important as the fact that you can provide, and be part of the fun. "believing that this is the great sacrifice I must make, the choice I took upon myself for the betterment of the family, for you, but I know that’s not entirely true A little or a lot, it’s for me This addiction or obsession I seem to have with work"
- hoggle 12y ago
  "I want to say, in all seriousness, that a great deal of harm is being done in the modern world by belief in the virtuousness of work, and that the road to happiness and prosperity lies in an organized diminution of work." Bertrand Russell - "In Praise of Idleness" - http://www.zpub.com/notes/idle.html http://www.zpub.com/notes/idle.html "Leisure: The Basis Of Culture" by Josef Pieper also seems on topic, I'm planning to read it myself - http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/767958.Leisure http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/767958.Leisure References are from comments on here yesterday - "How did we get so busy?" - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7769610 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7769610 I don't know if the OP is still contracting but if he is, something like Brennan Dunn's "Double Your Freelancing Rate" could help with working less on more interesting / higher paid projects - http://doubleyourfreelancingrate.com http://doubleyourfreelancingrate.com
  - embwbam 12y ago
    Wow. I just read the first link "In Praise of Idleness" and I have to say it completely turned my thoughts on work around. I had no idea how fundamentally the work culture has influenced me.
- 127001brewer 12y ago
  From the wife/kid's perspective - they want you to be happy, but they also want you to be present and engaged. From my own experiences - obviously your mileage may vary - but your family (and especially your wife if you have young kids!) needs you to be present and engaged. Yes, as others have said, PG has said that you could compress your working life into a few years but what if you're holding a losing lotto ticket at the end of the day? Because you are gambling with your time. We all make compromises and sacrifices with our lives - and we all have to live with those choices. Whether these are "right" or "wrong" is really for the individual to decide.
gingerlime 12y ago
Couldn't agree more. The post is very well written and reads like a poem, but the message is terrible on all counts. It sounds like a soldier being forced to go to battle crying for the family he leaves behind, where in fact it's entirely his own choices. And if it's some sort of an internal torment, being torn between two passions that conflict with one another, then I would suggest he gets a grip and decide which sacrifices he wants to make and which he doesn't and find the right balance. It's probably my first negative comment on HN, but as a new father of a 6 months son, and a co-founder of a startup, this just irritates me. I spend 2-3 days per week working from home, being able to take a lunch break with my wife, or change nappies for my son or feed him in the morning before hacking away. I catch up later at night when he sleeps, but generally manage my time well between those two. I'm not a perfect father and not the most successful entrepreneur, but these are the choices I made and the challenges I face. I think it's important for my son that I'm going to be around, but also that he has a father that is proud of his work and enjoys what he does.
- bcantrill 12y ago
  Absolutely agreed -- I actually find this poem entirely nauseating, probably because it reminds me of my own father: he repeatedly made absolutely terrible choices and then would try to make up for it with occasional blubbering displays of emotion in which he would beg for forgiveness. Again, I'm surely projecting, but I can just clearly see his older daughter's reaction to this: "Dad, get a grip -- and please just choose to show up to my volleyball game next time."
- Rudism 12y ago
  I share this sentiment. The author needs to consider which thing will cause him more regret in the long term--working a more normal schedule and potentially missing out on whatever rewards living the startup life may give him, or definitely missing out on his daughter's childhood. For me it would be (and is--I have two sons) a no-brainer. I actually am working at a start-up, but it's one that places a high value on work-life balance so I never feel that I have to work outside of 9-5. I have cracked open the laptop on the occasional evening just because I enjoy what I'm working on, but I definitely wouldn't want to miss this period of my kids' lives for anything. They're only this young once.
jdbernard 12y ago
> We tell ourselves it isn't a choice but for many of us it is. Most of us could earn enough money to support our family comfortably in a relatively regular 9 - 5 job. We might not be personally as satisfied and we might not be as financially well off, but we can choose one possible version of our life over another. I'm currently in the 9-5 job and maybe I'm just a whiner, but I feel the same as this guy. I hate the commute through rush hour traffic that I am required by the time window to make. I hate that once I get to the office I sit in a 8'x8' cube, with two 8'x4' desks taking up 50% of the space. I hate that I've just been reassigned to a new cube, same size, same desks, but now with a structural 4x4 pillar taking up another 25% and my back to the "door". I hate that I spend all day patching the same kinds of holes again and again without the authority to fix the root problems. I hate that I have no real ability to influence the direction of my organization. Without agency it become very difficult to keep caring about the product. I hate that nobody else cares either. I work purely to support my family. That is the only reason. I used to love writing software, and I still do, but I hate my job. I hate that I feel like everything that makes me who I am is being slowly ground away into nothing. I get home with time for the kids but I have nothing left. My mental tank is completely empty. I almost can't get up in the mornings, I don't want to get up. If it wasn't for my wife and kids I wouldn't get up. Somehow this wonderful, exciting process of solving problems and finding solutions to people's needs has turned into torture. I'm on a sinking ship and am too burdened with responsibility to jump off. So I'm frantically trying in my spare time to build a raft so I can find my own island. I feel like I'm racing against time. I have to finish the raft before I have a mental break and land my family on welfare and me on a psychologist's couch. There are great things about my job, those benefits that you mention: 40 hours a week (well, 50 including the commute), an above-average salary (my wife can spend her quality time teaching and raising our kids), job security (we've been planning to end-of-life the product for longer than I've been here), a reasonable boss (who is just as powerless to change things as I am). I guess I'm not really disagreeing with you, just sharing an admittedly depressed view from the other side. We do have a choice, and right now my choice is to pull late nights after the kids go to bed. I'm scrambling to create my own software that I can sell so I don't have to go to this 9-5 which you advocate for OP.
- Tyrannosaurs 12y ago
SoftwareMaven 12y ago
I made a poor choice when my kids were young. I got so used to not being there, working full time while going to school, that, when school ended, I didn't stop "not being there". Whether it was working late hours or traveling a lot, I missed a lot, and I do regret it. My kids are all teens moving into 20s now. I work a job whose primary feature is working at home (the job is fine, but I do it to be home) so I can soak up some last time with them before they are out of the house. I now get to hear about crushes and new-found independence. But, if I could do it again, I wouldn't make the mistake. There is time for all the things after your kids are older. If you are in a situation where you have to be gone to provide a roof, and there is no other way, have no guilt; but if you have the option, your future self and your kids will thank you for being there.
__abc 12y ago
I work in a rapid growing startup that requires more than 8 hours a day and I have two young children. My priorities are 1 - Children 2 - Marriage 3 - Living arrangements / lifestyle (sans work) 4 - Career (but I take my career VERY seriously, I've been an executive for 9 years and I'm 33) My routine 1 - Alarm goes off at 4:30 am 2 - I pickup around the house, toss in laundry as needed 3 - Catch the 5:45 am train to be into the office roughly @ 6:15 am 4 - I leave the office @ 5:30 pm to catch the 5:50 pm train to be home roughly @ 6:15 pm 5 - I play with the kids 6 - We then eat dinner together as a family 7 - I bathe and put both kids to bed around 7:30 - 8:00 pm 8 - I help pick up the rest of my house with my wife, it usually ends @ 8:30 pm (we talk a lot while doing this) 9 - My wife and I sit down on the couch/porch/etc and hang out for a few hours while I also work 10 - I'm usually in bed by 11 - 11:30 pm If I have more work to do that evening I might have my laptop out while hanging out with my wife or stay up later. This is usually 4 nights out of the week. Things that shift to "once in a while" given my priorities 1 - A full 8 hours of sleep 2 - Seeing that television show 3 - Seeing that movie 4 - Random nights out with friends 5 - Etc These simply just take a back seat. Things I never miss, and spend as much time with as someone working a standard 9-5 (although I do head into the office earlier than most) 1 - My kids (first and foremost) 2 - My wife 3 - My house 4 - My career and type of company I appreciate being involved with To me, I keep the things that matter most and give up things that I found out I didn't really need (for context, I never really watched a lot of television). This schedule works for me and I end up working 10 hours a day and never miss a beat with my kids. PS. I also about twice a day, for 5 minutes, FaceTime with my wife/kids while at work. It's a nice break and a chance for me to see them during the day given I miss them in the morning.

lmg643 12y ago

I would agree with this. People have a way of heavily discounting the present in favor of the uncertain future. It becomes a habit, almost an addiction, to medicate feelings in the present (FUD - perhaps their anxiety over being a parent, even). A friend of mine uses the term "future tripping" - I like it. I will give this guy a lot of credit for honesty. It's tempting to pretend that starting a company is something you are doing solely to provide a better life for others, when the truth is it is just as often, if not more so, for the self-actualization need of the founder. From the wife/kid's perspective - they want you to be happy, but they also want you to be present and engaged. From that perspective, what you do to make the money isn't so important as the fact that you can provide, and be part of the fun. "believing that this is the great sacrifice I must make, the choice I took upon myself for the betterment of the family, for you, but I know that’s not entirely true A little or a lot, it’s for me This addiction or obsession I seem to have with work"

hoggle 12y ago
"I want to say, in all seriousness, that a great deal of harm is being done in the modern world by belief in the virtuousness of work, and that the road to happiness and prosperity lies in an organized diminution of work." Bertrand Russell - "In Praise of Idleness" - http://www.zpub.com/notes/idle.html http://www.zpub.com/notes/idle.html "Leisure: The Basis Of Culture" by Josef Pieper also seems on topic, I'm planning to read it myself - http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/767958.Leisure http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/767958.Leisure References are from comments on here yesterday - "How did we get so busy?" - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7769610 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7769610 I don't know if the OP is still contracting but if he is, something like Brennan Dunn's "Double Your Freelancing Rate" could help with working less on more interesting / higher paid projects - http://doubleyourfreelancingrate.com http://doubleyourfreelancingrate.com
- embwbam 12y ago
  Wow. I just read the first link "In Praise of Idleness" and I have to say it completely turned my thoughts on work around. I had no idea how fundamentally the work culture has influenced me.
127001brewer 12y ago
From the wife/kid's perspective - they want you to be happy, but they also want you to be present and engaged. From my own experiences - obviously your mileage may vary - but your family (and especially your wife if you have young kids!) needs you to be present and engaged. Yes, as others have said, PG has said that you could compress your working life into a few years but what if you're holding a losing lotto ticket at the end of the day? Because you are gambling with your time. We all make compromises and sacrifices with our lives - and we all have to live with those choices. Whether these are "right" or "wrong" is really for the individual to decide.

gingerlime 12y ago

Couldn't agree more. The post is very well written and reads like a poem, but the message is terrible on all counts. It sounds like a soldier being forced to go to battle crying for the family he leaves behind, where in fact it's entirely his own choices. And if it's some sort of an internal torment, being torn between two passions that conflict with one another, then I would suggest he gets a grip and decide which sacrifices he wants to make and which he doesn't and find the right balance. It's probably my first negative comment on HN, but as a new father of a 6 months son, and a co-founder of a startup, this just irritates me. I spend 2-3 days per week working from home, being able to take a lunch break with my wife, or change nappies for my son or feed him in the morning before hacking away. I catch up later at night when he sleeps, but generally manage my time well between those two. I'm not a perfect father and not the most successful entrepreneur, but these are the choices I made and the challenges I face. I think it's important for my son that I'm going to be around, but also that he has a father that is proud of his work and enjoys what he does.

bcantrill 12y ago
Absolutely agreed -- I actually find this poem entirely nauseating, probably because it reminds me of my own father: he repeatedly made absolutely terrible choices and then would try to make up for it with occasional blubbering displays of emotion in which he would beg for forgiveness. Again, I'm surely projecting, but I can just clearly see his older daughter's reaction to this: "Dad, get a grip -- and please just choose to show up to my volleyball game next time."
Rudism 12y ago
I share this sentiment. The author needs to consider which thing will cause him more regret in the long term--working a more normal schedule and potentially missing out on whatever rewards living the startup life may give him, or definitely missing out on his daughter's childhood. For me it would be (and is--I have two sons) a no-brainer. I actually am working at a start-up, but it's one that places a high value on work-life balance so I never feel that I have to work outside of 9-5. I have cracked open the laptop on the occasional evening just because I enjoy what I'm working on, but I definitely wouldn't want to miss this period of my kids' lives for anything. They're only this young once.

jdbernard 12y ago

> We tell ourselves it isn't a choice but for many of us it is. Most of us could earn enough money to support our family comfortably in a relatively regular 9 - 5 job. We might not be personally as satisfied and we might not be as financially well off, but we can choose one possible version of our life over another. I'm currently in the 9-5 job and maybe I'm just a whiner, but I feel the same as this guy. I hate the commute through rush hour traffic that I am required by the time window to make. I hate that once I get to the office I sit in a 8'x8' cube, with two 8'x4' desks taking up 50% of the space. I hate that I've just been reassigned to a new cube, same size, same desks, but now with a structural 4x4 pillar taking up another 25% and my back to the "door". I hate that I spend all day patching the same kinds of holes again and again without the authority to fix the root problems. I hate that I have no real ability to influence the direction of my organization. Without agency it become very difficult to keep caring about the product. I hate that nobody else cares either. I work purely to support my family. That is the only reason. I used to love writing software, and I still do, but I hate my job. I hate that I feel like everything that makes me who I am is being slowly ground away into nothing. I get home with time for the kids but I have nothing left. My mental tank is completely empty. I almost can't get up in the mornings, I don't want to get up. If it wasn't for my wife and kids I wouldn't get up. Somehow this wonderful, exciting process of solving problems and finding solutions to people's needs has turned into torture. I'm on a sinking ship and am too burdened with responsibility to jump off. So I'm frantically trying in my spare time to build a raft so I can find my own island. I feel like I'm racing against time. I have to finish the raft before I have a mental break and land my family on welfare and me on a psychologist's couch. There are great things about my job, those benefits that you mention: 40 hours a week (well, 50 including the commute), an above-average salary (my wife can spend her quality time teaching and raising our kids), job security (we've been planning to end-of-life the product for longer than I've been here), a reasonable boss (who is just as powerless to change things as I am). I guess I'm not really disagreeing with you, just sharing an admittedly depressed view from the other side. We do have a choice, and right now my choice is to pull late nights after the kids go to bed. I'm scrambling to create my own software that I can sell so I don't have to go to this 9-5 which you advocate for OP.

Tyrannosaurs 12y ago

SoftwareMaven 12y ago

I made a poor choice when my kids were young. I got so used to not being there, working full time while going to school, that, when school ended, I didn't stop "not being there". Whether it was working late hours or traveling a lot, I missed a lot, and I do regret it. My kids are all teens moving into 20s now. I work a job whose primary feature is working at home (the job is fine, but I do it to be home) so I can soak up some last time with them before they are out of the house. I now get to hear about crushes and new-found independence. But, if I could do it again, I wouldn't make the mistake. There is time for all the things after your kids are older. If you are in a situation where you have to be gone to provide a roof, and there is no other way, have no guilt; but if you have the option, your future self and your kids will thank you for being there.

__abc 12y ago

I work in a rapid growing startup that requires more than 8 hours a day and I have two young children. My priorities are 1 - Children 2 - Marriage 3 - Living arrangements / lifestyle (sans work) 4 - Career (but I take my career VERY seriously, I've been an executive for 9 years and I'm 33) My routine 1 - Alarm goes off at 4:30 am 2 - I pickup around the house, toss in laundry as needed 3 - Catch the 5:45 am train to be into the office roughly @ 6:15 am 4 - I leave the office @ 5:30 pm to catch the 5:50 pm train to be home roughly @ 6:15 pm 5 - I play with the kids 6 - We then eat dinner together as a family 7 - I bathe and put both kids to bed around 7:30 - 8:00 pm 8 - I help pick up the rest of my house with my wife, it usually ends @ 8:30 pm (we talk a lot while doing this) 9 - My wife and I sit down on the couch/porch/etc and hang out for a few hours while I also work 10 - I'm usually in bed by 11 - 11:30 pm If I have more work to do that evening I might have my laptop out while hanging out with my wife or stay up later. This is usually 4 nights out of the week. Things that shift to "once in a while" given my priorities 1 - A full 8 hours of sleep 2 - Seeing that television show 3 - Seeing that movie 4 - Random nights out with friends 5 - Etc These simply just take a back seat. Things I never miss, and spend as much time with as someone working a standard 9-5 (although I do head into the office earlier than most) 1 - My kids (first and foremost) 2 - My wife 3 - My house 4 - My career and type of company I appreciate being involved with To me, I keep the things that matter most and give up things that I found out I didn't really need (for context, I never really watched a lot of television). This schedule works for me and I end up working 10 hours a day and never miss a beat with my kids. PS. I also about twice a day, for 5 minutes, FaceTime with my wife/kids while at work. It's a nice break and a chance for me to see them during the day given I miss them in the morning.