12 ms·

There could be a wide range of reasons for this, but I'm pretty sure a large part of it is protectionism. The Chinese government is pretty hostile towards forei

by msvan 12y ago

There could be a wide range of reasons for this, but I'm pretty sure a large part of it is protectionism. The Chinese government is pretty hostile towards foreign software in China, and they are probably displeased with China's dependence on Windows. When I lived was in China, I contemplated starting a business there. Burgeoning market, and all. But I came to understand that it's a terrible idea. If you're a foreign national that manages to successfully launch a business in China, you are either morally corrupt, have given substantial bribes or have connections within the government. And if you were to become too successful, the Chinese government will make sure that you either cooperate or become insignificant. I can't help but think that this strategy will damage their economy in the long run, but for now they are doing pretty well. Kudos to them for being one of few countries that actually manage to resist the massive influence of the US. If the PRC hadn't been protectionist, the Chinese would be using Google and Facebook just like the rest of us.

netcan 12y ago
This doesn't really make sense in this case. Facebook & Google have chinese alternatives. The alternative to Windows 8 is presumably some older Windows.
- cushychicken 12y ago
  I'd say that's correct - XP is all over the place in China.
  - glasslion 12y ago
    Not true, in the government.
- willvarfar 12y ago
  Red Flag Linux is, I think, defunct; but they can copy Red Star OS from North Korea?
  - chilledheart 12y ago
    Nope, Ubuntu Kylin is a more likely alternative. see more http://www.ubuntu.com/desktop/ubuntu-kylin http://www.ubuntu.com/desktop/ubuntu-kylin
- msvan 12y ago
  My point is that Facebook and Google would've been the dominant actors on the Chinese market today, not Weibo, QQ and Baidu, if the CCP hadn't been actively working against the US companies. The alternative to Windows 8 is, for now, some older version of Windows XP. But as other commenters have pointed out, the CCP is pushing for a Linux-based alternative to Windows. There was an internal CCP document floating around on the Internet last year discussing the Chinese government's worries about not having a domestic OS for desktop and mobile. It'll be a tough transition to make, but compared to forced urbanization it's a walk in the park.
  - xiaq 12y ago
    > My point is that Facebook and Google would've been the dominant actors on the Chinese market today, not Weibo, QQ and Baidu, if the CCP hadn't been actively working against the US companies. To some degree I agree about this assertion, but you made some factual mistakes: * The C2C (copy to China) relationship is Twitter -> Weibo, Facebook -> Renren and Google -> Baidu. * QQ is an IM and the western equivalents MSN, Skype etc. were never banned in China. Also, QQ gained its popularity quite some before the GFW. I believe this is the most legitimate story where a Chinese product wins not due to GFW. Another such story is eBay vs. Taobao.
    - turingbook 12y ago
      At least we can also name Dianping and Tudou were established before or at the same time as their western counterparts (Yelp and YouTube).
    - KaoruAoiShiho 12y ago
      Baidu is older than Google.
      - xiaq 12y ago
        Baidu was founded in 2000. Google in 1998. However, Robin Li (founder of Baidu) seems to have begun his research on search engines earlier than Google founders. Therefore in some sense Baidu is older than Google, but that's not the most obvious sense :) This does show that Baidu is not a C2C (Copy to China) product though. I'm happy to learn that.
- D9u 12y ago
  > The alternative to Windows 8 is presumably some older Windows. Not necessarily. There are other, more secure, free, operating systems.
panarky 12y ago
Is it just a coincidence that Windows 8 gets banned just one day this story was published? The Justice Department has indicted five members of the Chinese military on charges of hacking into computers and stealing valuable trade secrets from leading steel, nuclear plant and solar power firms, marking the first time that the United States has leveled such criminal charges against a foreign country. Seems that the most likely explanation is retaliation. http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-to-announce-first-criminal-charges-against-foreign-country-for-cyberspying/2014/05/19/586c9992-df45-11e3-810f-764fe508b82d_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-to-...
- ttflee 12y ago
  It is too early to say whose retaliation it is. Actually I have heard rumors that official files states that no Windows 8 machines should be bought in a government procurement a few days ago. I did not realize that this total boycott was happening then.
  - panarky 12y ago
    The indictment against the five PLA members was filed May 1, and only got publicized on May 19. If rumors of a Windows 8 ban have been circulating recently, it could well be "sanctions" against the US in response to the indictment. Hard to know for certain, but when the stated rationale for the ban doesn't make sense there must be another reason. Energy consumption? Security vs. XP?
    - shaneofalltrad 12y ago
      To "sanction" the company that supported China's computer growth is kinda messed up. I am no windows fan-boy but how many billions of dollars were not spent on XP by Chinese companies? At some point you should invest in a Company, who's product you regularly use. Let's not forget these are Companies, out-competing American and European businesses by costs.. not College students or teens or home users that can not afford the cost of an OS. My point is, they should show this resentment to the US Government and not the company who let them get away with free OS all these years.
Zigurd 12y ago
> but I'm pretty sure a large part of it is protectionism. Windows has a lot of prestige in China. It's imported from America. It's expensive. Working for Microsoft in China is insanely high-prestige. When non-engineers in China see I'm running Ubuntu they wonder why. Engineers who use Linux at work almost all have Windows machines at home, always a pirated copy. I'm pretty sure a lot of Chinese bureaucrats are grumbling about this. "Oh now we have to use a crappy Chinese OS. Free is for losers!" But I'm only surprised that it took this long. China is going to be the biggest economy on the planet. So far China has maintained a degree of autonomy and sovereignty unlike any US ally in the three inner rings of the NSA surveillance hierarchy has. I expect other governments to follow. Most governments are in a position where they cannot compete with the NSA, domestically or internationally. Most don't have 1% of the NSA's budget for surveillance. They may all wish they could spy on their people like the NSA does, but wishes, horses, etc. Some will realize that the only way to win is not to play the surveillance game. Instead they will put their resources toward securing their government and enterprise computing, and maybe even securing their populations, by banning US products and services associated with NSA surveillance programs.
- dragontamer 12y ago
  Are you seriously comparing the NSA to China? I'm sure the NSA would love to ban VPNs, break Wikipedia's encryption and openly have censorship / spying programs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Shield_Project http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Shield_Project . But lets be frank, China is far ahead of anything going on in the Western world. http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/may/13/china-cracks-down-on-vpn-use http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/may/13/china-crac... http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/28/china_vpn_great_firewall_censorship_blocked/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/28/china_vpn_great_fire... In the US, any hint of censorship or spying is met with extreme resistance. In China, censorship and spying isn't just accepted, its public policy. You can disappear for saying the wrong things on a public blog, and bloggers have developed codewords in response.
  - Symmetry 12y ago
    It can both be that the NSA has capacities that the Chinese envy and that the Chinese have capacities the NSA envies.
golergka 12y ago
Isn't your point about doing business true regardless of wether you're a foreign national or not?
Houshalter 12y ago
Yeah good on them for being protectionist and resisting foreign influence, but I doubt it's to their benefit. The Chinese alternatives to websites are worse in that they are highly cooperative with their censorship. The alternative to Windows 8 is likely going to be XP.
malandrew 12y ago
Or it will promote open source as a solution. If Windows 8 is banned, maybe Linux will be considered? If I were a government official in China (or any major world power for that matter), I would definitely pursue a policy that reduced dependence on closed source American software in critical places (operating systems and networking hardware).

by msvan 12y ago

netcan 12y ago

This doesn't really make sense in this case. Facebook & Google have chinese alternatives. The alternative to Windows 8 is presumably some older Windows.

cushychicken 12y ago
I'd say that's correct - XP is all over the place in China.
- glasslion 12y ago
  Not true, in the government.
willvarfar 12y ago
Red Flag Linux is, I think, defunct; but they can copy Red Star OS from North Korea?
- chilledheart 12y ago
  Nope, Ubuntu Kylin is a more likely alternative. see more http://www.ubuntu.com/desktop/ubuntu-kylin http://www.ubuntu.com/desktop/ubuntu-kylin
msvan 12y ago
My point is that Facebook and Google would've been the dominant actors on the Chinese market today, not Weibo, QQ and Baidu, if the CCP hadn't been actively working against the US companies. The alternative to Windows 8 is, for now, some older version of Windows XP. But as other commenters have pointed out, the CCP is pushing for a Linux-based alternative to Windows. There was an internal CCP document floating around on the Internet last year discussing the Chinese government's worries about not having a domestic OS for desktop and mobile. It'll be a tough transition to make, but compared to forced urbanization it's a walk in the park.
- xiaq 12y ago
  > My point is that Facebook and Google would've been the dominant actors on the Chinese market today, not Weibo, QQ and Baidu, if the CCP hadn't been actively working against the US companies. To some degree I agree about this assertion, but you made some factual mistakes: * The C2C (copy to China) relationship is Twitter -> Weibo, Facebook -> Renren and Google -> Baidu. * QQ is an IM and the western equivalents MSN, Skype etc. were never banned in China. Also, QQ gained its popularity quite some before the GFW. I believe this is the most legitimate story where a Chinese product wins not due to GFW. Another such story is eBay vs. Taobao.
  - turingbook 12y ago
    At least we can also name Dianping and Tudou were established before or at the same time as their western counterparts (Yelp and YouTube).
  - KaoruAoiShiho 12y ago
    Baidu is older than Google.
    - xiaq 12y ago
      Baidu was founded in 2000. Google in 1998. However, Robin Li (founder of Baidu) seems to have begun his research on search engines earlier than Google founders. Therefore in some sense Baidu is older than Google, but that's not the most obvious sense :) This does show that Baidu is not a C2C (Copy to China) product though. I'm happy to learn that.
D9u 12y ago
> The alternative to Windows 8 is presumably some older Windows. Not necessarily. There are other, more secure, free, operating systems.

panarky 12y ago

Is it just a coincidence that Windows 8 gets banned just one day this story was published? The Justice Department has indicted five members of the Chinese military on charges of hacking into computers and stealing valuable trade secrets from leading steel, nuclear plant and solar power firms, marking the first time that the United States has leveled such criminal charges against a foreign country. Seems that the most likely explanation is retaliation. http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-to-announce-first-criminal-charges-against-foreign-country-for-cyberspying/2014/05/19/586c9992-df45-11e3-810f-764fe508b82d_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-to-...

ttflee 12y ago
It is too early to say whose retaliation it is. Actually I have heard rumors that official files states that no Windows 8 machines should be bought in a government procurement a few days ago. I did not realize that this total boycott was happening then.
- panarky 12y ago
  The indictment against the five PLA members was filed May 1, and only got publicized on May 19. If rumors of a Windows 8 ban have been circulating recently, it could well be "sanctions" against the US in response to the indictment. Hard to know for certain, but when the stated rationale for the ban doesn't make sense there must be another reason. Energy consumption? Security vs. XP?
  - shaneofalltrad 12y ago
    To "sanction" the company that supported China's computer growth is kinda messed up. I am no windows fan-boy but how many billions of dollars were not spent on XP by Chinese companies? At some point you should invest in a Company, who's product you regularly use. Let's not forget these are Companies, out-competing American and European businesses by costs.. not College students or teens or home users that can not afford the cost of an OS. My point is, they should show this resentment to the US Government and not the company who let them get away with free OS all these years.

Zigurd 12y ago

> but I'm pretty sure a large part of it is protectionism. Windows has a lot of prestige in China. It's imported from America. It's expensive. Working for Microsoft in China is insanely high-prestige. When non-engineers in China see I'm running Ubuntu they wonder why. Engineers who use Linux at work almost all have Windows machines at home, always a pirated copy. I'm pretty sure a lot of Chinese bureaucrats are grumbling about this. "Oh now we have to use a crappy Chinese OS. Free is for losers!" But I'm only surprised that it took this long. China is going to be the biggest economy on the planet. So far China has maintained a degree of autonomy and sovereignty unlike any US ally in the three inner rings of the NSA surveillance hierarchy has. I expect other governments to follow. Most governments are in a position where they cannot compete with the NSA, domestically or internationally. Most don't have 1% of the NSA's budget for surveillance. They may all wish they could spy on their people like the NSA does, but wishes, horses, etc. Some will realize that the only way to win is not to play the surveillance game. Instead they will put their resources toward securing their government and enterprise computing, and maybe even securing their populations, by banning US products and services associated with NSA surveillance programs.

dragontamer 12y ago
Are you seriously comparing the NSA to China? I'm sure the NSA would love to ban VPNs, break Wikipedia's encryption and openly have censorship / spying programs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Shield_Project http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Shield_Project . But lets be frank, China is far ahead of anything going on in the Western world. http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/may/13/china-cracks-down-on-vpn-use http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/may/13/china-crac... http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/28/china_vpn_great_firewall_censorship_blocked/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/28/china_vpn_great_fire... In the US, any hint of censorship or spying is met with extreme resistance. In China, censorship and spying isn't just accepted, its public policy. You can disappear for saying the wrong things on a public blog, and bloggers have developed codewords in response.
- Symmetry 12y ago
  It can both be that the NSA has capacities that the Chinese envy and that the Chinese have capacities the NSA envies.

golergka 12y ago

Isn't your point about doing business true regardless of wether you're a foreign national or not?

Houshalter 12y ago

Yeah good on them for being protectionist and resisting foreign influence, but I doubt it's to their benefit. The Chinese alternatives to websites are worse in that they are highly cooperative with their censorship. The alternative to Windows 8 is likely going to be XP.

malandrew 12y ago

Or it will promote open source as a solution. If Windows 8 is banned, maybe Linux will be considered? If I were a government official in China (or any major world power for that matter), I would definitely pursue a policy that reduced dependence on closed source American software in critical places (operating systems and networking hardware).