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Intimidation and pressure is well documented within unions. They're constructed democratically but rarely work that way. It doesn't have to be physical. Ther

by brc 12y ago

Intimidation and pressure is well documented within unions. They're constructed democratically but rarely work that way. It doesn't have to be physical. There are many ways to ensure compliance with voting. As for pilots - I specifically said: "I don't know which the pilots unions would use." I make no allegations about pilots unions, merely comment on the way many unions are run. I have had experience with unions in the past, including being a member.

yardie 12y ago
If you have an example of union intimidation then please provide it. My spouse is part of a union and no one is intimidated. Before a major vote we'll receive dozens of emails, letters, and newsletters expressing views from both the airline and the union. Most votes are 80/20 and even 90/10 split. Rarely has there been a 51/49 split. I've never seen it since she has joined. Intimidation could be used to move a vote from 49.9 to 50.1 but like I said, most votes aren't even that close. Based on the material I have I can say employers use intimidation. i.e. vote this way or we'll have to do layoffs.
- hueving 12y ago
  >If you have an example of union intimidation then please provide it. My spouse is part of a union and no one is intimidated. How much choice did he/she have in joining the union? When you receive the emails and letters before a vote, how many are from union members speaking against the union? If it's always 0, then there is some level of intimidation that your spouse likely hasn't been exposed to because he/she agrees with whatever the union says. All 3 of the unions my parents were members of always put immense pressure on members that spoke out against the union because they don't want the company to see that there is any kind of uncertainty. Even the legal/job threats when you refuse to pay your dues because you don't want to be a part of their organization is a form of intimidation.
  - yardie 12y ago
    Joining the union was completely here choice. She wasn't a member of any for the 1st few years. In fact there are more than one. Some based on profession (ground crew, cabin crew, pilots) and others based on criteria (regional, international fleets). There is a union that is pro-corp, another that is pro-labor, and her union sits in the middle and is the largest. We've never received email or letters from other members. with 10,000 members it would be ridiculous to do so. Like any club members tend to display their dissatisfaction by canceling their membership. Everyone can express their opinions anonymously on the various aviation forums. It's how I learned about the other unions being created because her some weren't satisfied with the current leadership. I've met her union leaders while walking around the campus and I get the impression it is a thankless job. You're rarely credited with successes and any failure is your fault. As has been said before, you know a good negotiation when no one is satisfied.
- danielweber 12y ago
  The question wasn't "union faction" versus "shareholder faction." It was about individual factions within the union. The default behavior for any organization is to crush minority opinions. It takes active and continued effort to keep minority voices alive. (This is also a problem on the shareholder side, of course. I've personally witnessed minority shareholders get completely shafted to benefit the 51%. And to be clear, the existence of the problem on one side does not ameliorate or justify the existence of the problem on the other side.)

by brc 12y ago

yardie 12y ago

If you have an example of union intimidation then please provide it. My spouse is part of a union and no one is intimidated. Before a major vote we'll receive dozens of emails, letters, and newsletters expressing views from both the airline and the union. Most votes are 80/20 and even 90/10 split. Rarely has there been a 51/49 split. I've never seen it since she has joined. Intimidation could be used to move a vote from 49.9 to 50.1 but like I said, most votes aren't even that close. Based on the material I have I can say employers use intimidation. i.e. vote this way or we'll have to do layoffs.

hueving 12y ago
>If you have an example of union intimidation then please provide it. My spouse is part of a union and no one is intimidated. How much choice did he/she have in joining the union? When you receive the emails and letters before a vote, how many are from union members speaking against the union? If it's always 0, then there is some level of intimidation that your spouse likely hasn't been exposed to because he/she agrees with whatever the union says. All 3 of the unions my parents were members of always put immense pressure on members that spoke out against the union because they don't want the company to see that there is any kind of uncertainty. Even the legal/job threats when you refuse to pay your dues because you don't want to be a part of their organization is a form of intimidation.
- yardie 12y ago
  Joining the union was completely here choice. She wasn't a member of any for the 1st few years. In fact there are more than one. Some based on profession (ground crew, cabin crew, pilots) and others based on criteria (regional, international fleets). There is a union that is pro-corp, another that is pro-labor, and her union sits in the middle and is the largest. We've never received email or letters from other members. with 10,000 members it would be ridiculous to do so. Like any club members tend to display their dissatisfaction by canceling their membership. Everyone can express their opinions anonymously on the various aviation forums. It's how I learned about the other unions being created because her some weren't satisfied with the current leadership. I've met her union leaders while walking around the campus and I get the impression it is a thankless job. You're rarely credited with successes and any failure is your fault. As has been said before, you know a good negotiation when no one is satisfied.
danielweber 12y ago
The question wasn't "union faction" versus "shareholder faction." It was about individual factions within the union. The default behavior for any organization is to crush minority opinions. It takes active and continued effort to keep minority voices alive. (This is also a problem on the shareholder side, of course. I've personally witnessed minority shareholders get completely shafted to benefit the 51%. And to be clear, the existence of the problem on one side does not ameliorate or justify the existence of the problem on the other side.)