5 ms·

It's simple game theory. The issue with pay based upon subjective measures is that it can be gamed by the employer in order to "divide and conquer" the workfor

It's simple game theory. The issue with pay based upon subjective measures is that it can be gamed by the employer in order to "divide and conquer" the workforce and ultimately break the union apart. Even if management are given a clear set of rules in order to to decide promotions based upon merit, they can normally fudge it in some way to make sure that workers who put fealty to management ahead of loyalty to union get ahead quicker. Once that gets started it gives other workers an incentive to do the same. Gradually that will chip away at the union's strength as more and more workers defect until eventually management can gather enough scabs, cut the union out altogether and pay everybody 14k/year. Seniority is not an ideal measure of competence, but it is at least an OBJECTIVE measure that will correlate with competence and (most importantly) can't be gamed by either side. So it's a normal compromise that makes a lot of sense that unions and management will agree to. If there were other, better non-gameable metrics I'm sure their negotiations would probably converge on them instead.

jpatokal 12y ago
Paying everybody 14k/year might work if they were hiring people to dig ditches. However, it's a seller's market for pilots right now: if they try to cut the salary of a captain who's been flying widebodies for 20 years to 14k/year, he'll be off to Emirates faster than airline management can say "Oops". And to complete the circle, said shortage is largely caused by the fucked up seniority system, which makes it a huge gamble to become a junior pilot: http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/aviation-international-news/2014-04-03/pilot-shortage-myth-says-alpa http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/aviation-internationa...
- crdoconnor 12y ago
  >Paying everybody 14k/year might work if they were hiring people to dig ditches. However, it's a seller's market for pilots right now So why are pilots still earning less than bus drivers and having to apply for food stamps? >However, it's a seller's market for pilots right now: if they try to cut the salary of a captain who's been flying widebodies for 20 years to 14k/year, he'll be off to Emirates faster than airline management can say "Oops". Where, as Greenspun points out, they'll be paid the same as the rest of the new hires.
  - jpatokal 12y ago
    Re: why, Greenspun's article goes into that in some detail. Also, Emirates is in the United Arab Emirates, not the US, and about as militantly anti-union a country as you'll find -- and they're famous for luring pilots away from other airlines. By and large, the pilot seniority scheme is a US-only problem (although vestiges remain in Europe), most of the rest of the world competes tooth and claw for pilots.
    - crdoconnor 12y ago
      >pilot seniority scheme is a US-only problem This is a union thing, as I pointed out - not a problem, but a solution to an otherwise intractable game. The low wages is likely because lots of people have the ability to learn to fly in the US and lots people REALLY want to. Supply and demand.
      - cjrp 12y ago
        Yep, the cost of getting your license in the US is a lot cheaper than Europe (well, the UK at least)
  - tehwebguy 12y ago
    > So why are pilots still earning less than bus drivers and having to apply for food stamps? Part of it has to be the fact that some people want to fly so badly that they'll put up with poor pay & conditions if it means they can fly.
    - mabhatter 12y ago
      Bingo. Airlines have most of the commercial piloting jobs. The BIGGEST provider of employees is the US Military. A civilian pilot just doesn't stand a chance in that market versus kids that come out of service with 8+ years of high quality military training and thousands if hours of heavy duty piloting experience. (And the military wasn't paying them much over $16k anyway) There are FAR MORE entry level pilots (which takes $50k of civilian school and practice) than there are jobs to go around.

jpatokal 12y ago

Paying everybody 14k/year might work if they were hiring people to dig ditches. However, it's a seller's market for pilots right now: if they try to cut the salary of a captain who's been flying widebodies for 20 years to 14k/year, he'll be off to Emirates faster than airline management can say "Oops". And to complete the circle, said shortage is largely caused by the fucked up seniority system, which makes it a huge gamble to become a junior pilot: http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/aviation-international-news/2014-04-03/pilot-shortage-myth-says-alpa http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/aviation-internationa...

crdoconnor 12y ago
>Paying everybody 14k/year might work if they were hiring people to dig ditches. However, it's a seller's market for pilots right now So why are pilots still earning less than bus drivers and having to apply for food stamps? >However, it's a seller's market for pilots right now: if they try to cut the salary of a captain who's been flying widebodies for 20 years to 14k/year, he'll be off to Emirates faster than airline management can say "Oops". Where, as Greenspun points out, they'll be paid the same as the rest of the new hires.
- jpatokal 12y ago
  Re: why, Greenspun's article goes into that in some detail. Also, Emirates is in the United Arab Emirates, not the US, and about as militantly anti-union a country as you'll find -- and they're famous for luring pilots away from other airlines. By and large, the pilot seniority scheme is a US-only problem (although vestiges remain in Europe), most of the rest of the world competes tooth and claw for pilots.
  - crdoconnor 12y ago
    >pilot seniority scheme is a US-only problem This is a union thing, as I pointed out - not a problem, but a solution to an otherwise intractable game. The low wages is likely because lots of people have the ability to learn to fly in the US and lots people REALLY want to. Supply and demand.
    - cjrp 12y ago
      Yep, the cost of getting your license in the US is a lot cheaper than Europe (well, the UK at least)
- tehwebguy 12y ago
  > So why are pilots still earning less than bus drivers and having to apply for food stamps? Part of it has to be the fact that some people want to fly so badly that they'll put up with poor pay & conditions if it means they can fly.
  - mabhatter 12y ago
    Bingo. Airlines have most of the commercial piloting jobs. The BIGGEST provider of employees is the US Military. A civilian pilot just doesn't stand a chance in that market versus kids that come out of service with 8+ years of high quality military training and thousands if hours of heavy duty piloting experience. (And the military wasn't paying them much over $16k anyway) There are FAR MORE entry level pilots (which takes $50k of civilian school and practice) than there are jobs to go around.