22 ms·

I still can't understand why so many hackers/developers use OS X. Where I work doing web development, Linux machines account for less than 10% of the workstatio

by reedlaw 12y ago

I still can't understand why so many hackers/developers use OS X. Where I work doing web development, Linux machines account for less than 10% of the workstations, and the vast majority use OS X. When I tried OS X at one point I found it horrible. The most irritating thing was the keyboard which could not be mapped in the "standard" PC way (i.e. Ctrl Super Alt in the bottom left). I could get some programs to respect custom key bindings, but others would not. Besides that, there is no standard package manager for OS X and nearly all of the built-in libraries are terribly out-of-date. Worse yet from a security/privacy/philosophical viewpoint, OS X is proprietary software. We have no idea what risks or hidden back-doors exist inside. I've been using Linux for many years now and I'm still investing time daily sharpening my tools. It's an investment that continues to pay exponentially increasing rewards. Nearly all of the remote computing resources I use in my job are running Linux. That probably is true for most HN users. Is Linux really that much more difficult to use on the desktop? I find getting all my laptop hardware running smoothly is one of the easiest system administration tasks I face. And I only face that task once in a blue moon when I upgrade laptops.

aeberbach 12y ago
Yes, it is that much more difficult for people whose primary goal is doing stuff other than tweaking their computer. And as others have mentioned, nothing gets you more battery life than OS X on Apple hardware. Not sure how any of the various Linux package managers are more "standard" than brew on OS X...
- reedlaw 12y ago
  "Doing stuff" for developers often includes installing and running packages such as databases, programming languages, editors, etc. On OS X, there is only an App Store built-in. You have to choose one of many package managers[1]. Each package may get installed in its own non-standard way. Linux distributions like Debian or Arch have standardized package managers which handle dependencies and updates much more smoothly than any OS X implementation I've come across. 1. http://www.onthelambda.com/2013/10/14/the-state-of-package-management-on-mac-os-x/ http://www.onthelambda.com/2013/10/14/the-state-of-package-m...
  - matobago 12y ago
    Take a look of this http://brew.sh/ http://brew.sh/
  - renaudg 12y ago
    You don't have to choose, nowadays you just use Homebrew for anything that might not be built-in.
- danford 12y ago
  >Yes, it is that much more difficult for people whose primary goal is doing stuff other than tweaking their computer. Come on now, it's not 2005. Ubuntu runs smoothly on just about everything I've installed it on and I usually end up having to do more tweaking on Windows 8 than Ubuntu. As far as OS X goes, it's not perfect out of the box either, especially for anyone coming from a different environment who needs to tweak it to meet their standards.
informatimago 12y ago
It's the hardware, stupid. :-) I mean, compare: http://www.apple.com/macbook-air/ http://www.apple.com/macbook-air/ with: https://www.crowdsupply.com/kosagi/novena-open-laptop https://www.crowdsupply.com/kosagi/novena-open-laptop (ok, you could also buy an Asus laptop or something that would be nice looking enough, and cheaper than a novena laptop). Another point, is that when you're at home, with a linux laptop, you can spend two days configuring the wifi. But when you're going out to a conference, MacOSX shows its worth. Oh, and for several MacOSX versions now you can map the modifier keys as you wish, in the System Preferences / Keyboard panel. MacOSX is not entirely proprietary. Darwin is open sourced (in large part). And as developers, we use a lot of free software on MacOSX, starting with emacs, and all the linux tools you can get from MacPorts or Homebrew. Right, because between ourselves, the BSD tools provided by Apple suck. But actually, it's the econony, stupid! ;-) As a Linux hacker, I much prefer to earn the money I need to pay for taxes, internet, electricity, food and shelter (oh, and clothing, sometimes you get to go to conferences), developing applications on a unix machine like MacOSX, or iOS, rather than on MS-Windows. (Yes, there's also Android, but java...) So don't make a mistake, the main workstation is a Linux box, and even while developing MacOSX application, most of the code is written from the Linux box, even if it's compiled by Xcode on the MacOSX system nearby. Because, honestly, Linux is much more ergonomical! (if only because you really can configure it as you wish (and also strangeley, the keyboard feels much more responsive with linux than with MacOXS, let alone MS-Windows)). Anyways, remember, the Network is the computer! But most customers are still MS-Windows users, or MacOSX or iOS users, (or Android users right). So while you keep Linux close to the heart, you have to have a MacOSX system to earn your living. (And there's also the possibility to run MacOSX on a Virtual Machine on Linux, but let's be honest, it means that legally you still have to own Apple hardware).
- ohyes 12y ago
  The wifi thing was true a few years ago, but isn't anymore if you are using a mainstream distribution like Ubuntu or Fedora.
  - danford 12y ago
    Thing is, the parents comment makes no sense because it's implying that your wifi drivers would stop working if you connected to different wifi. OS X has plenty of problems, see: http://www.imore.com/os-x-mavericks-problems-drive-me-nuts-how-about-you http://www.imore.com/os-x-mavericks-problems-drive-me-nuts-h... I've personally experienced many of these my self. OS X is cool, but I wish the fan base would stop acting like it never has any bugs or issues. OS X does get bugs, OS X does crash, OS X can break, OS X does not always 'just work'. Just go to discussion.apple.com and look at all the issues everyone is having. OS X is a great OS though, but it's not infallible.
Veratyr 12y ago
For me it's a few things: - The battery life is very, very good and combined with the screen (Retina 13"), made it perfect for me. - It's still a POSIX environment so I can still use most of what I had from Linux without issue. - It doesn't require as much maintenance as Linux. I don't have to fiddle with things to get it to work the way I want, it already does that. - The hardware support has been great whenever I've had issues.
- danford 12y ago
  >It doesn't require as much maintenance as Linux. What maintenance does Linux require? The only thing I can think you might be implying is that there are bugs caused by updating that cause system issues frequently and this is simply untrue. Software updates have been known to cause issues on all systems, and I can find plenty of results on google showing OS X having issues after updates. Linux, in my experience, is the "set it and forget it" operating system. OS X is great though, just not for everyone (personally the environment doesn't have the capabilities I look for in an OS).
  - Osiris 12y ago
    I get scared everytime I do an apt-get update because I've had it break my Linux box more than once, sometimes horribly (especially when doing a dist-upgrade to get a new kernel). It's even worse when the Nvidia drivers don't automatically recompile for the new kernel. I've had many upgrade that resulted in no functional X-Window session so I had to use the terminal to download and recompile the video drivers. I realize that's a problem with binary blobs rather than open source drivers, but it's also a reality.
    - reedlaw 12y ago
      I had that fear under Ubuntu because a new dist upgrade is usually especially unstable. Now that I use Arch I don't fear upgrades. I do perform them fairly often though, because massive upgrades in general can be problematic.
    - greyfade 12y ago
matobago 12y ago
Easy... OSX comes with the best hardware and you can develop in any programing language... not the same for Windows
- kelnos 12y ago
  Who's talking about Windows here? We're talking about Linux. And you can, with a bit of effort, run Linux on a MacBook. Yes, it's not for everyone, and it took a good 10 months from the last MacBook Air release before I could run Linux natively on it (without VMWare), but for those of us who really like Linux, it's worth it. I totally get that the effort is not worth it for lots of people, though.
Stwerp 12y ago
>The most irritating thing was the keyboard which could not be mapped in the "standard" PC way (i.e. Ctrl Super Alt in the bottom left). That's funny. After using a mac for several years, that's my biggest gripe about working on most linux boxes. OS X separates text viewing and editing functions (C-f, C-k, C-a, etc in eamcs parlance) from system functions (S-c :: copy, S-v :: paste, S-w :: close window). In Linux, ctrl-A will either get you a cursor at column one, or select everything. I wish it were easier to define these actions system-wide the way OS X does.
- reedlaw 12y ago
  True, there are application-specific mappings in Linux. But what gets me is the Mac keyboard layout is asymmetrical. The right-hand side does not include a Meta (Alt) key. That makes efficient keyboarding extremely inconvenient.
dagw 12y ago
The quality of the Macbook Air outweighs any downsides having to use OS X (which I agree isn't that great). And OS X isn't so bad that it's worth my while to try to run Linux on my Mac.

by reedlaw 12y ago

aeberbach 12y ago

Yes, it is that much more difficult for people whose primary goal is doing stuff other than tweaking their computer. And as others have mentioned, nothing gets you more battery life than OS X on Apple hardware. Not sure how any of the various Linux package managers are more "standard" than brew on OS X...

reedlaw 12y ago
"Doing stuff" for developers often includes installing and running packages such as databases, programming languages, editors, etc. On OS X, there is only an App Store built-in. You have to choose one of many package managers[1]. Each package may get installed in its own non-standard way. Linux distributions like Debian or Arch have standardized package managers which handle dependencies and updates much more smoothly than any OS X implementation I've come across. 1. http://www.onthelambda.com/2013/10/14/the-state-of-package-management-on-mac-os-x/ http://www.onthelambda.com/2013/10/14/the-state-of-package-m...
- matobago 12y ago
  Take a look of this http://brew.sh/ http://brew.sh/
- renaudg 12y ago
  You don't have to choose, nowadays you just use Homebrew for anything that might not be built-in.
danford 12y ago
>Yes, it is that much more difficult for people whose primary goal is doing stuff other than tweaking their computer. Come on now, it's not 2005. Ubuntu runs smoothly on just about everything I've installed it on and I usually end up having to do more tweaking on Windows 8 than Ubuntu. As far as OS X goes, it's not perfect out of the box either, especially for anyone coming from a different environment who needs to tweak it to meet their standards.

informatimago 12y ago

It's the hardware, stupid. :-) I mean, compare: http://www.apple.com/macbook-air/ http://www.apple.com/macbook-air/ with: https://www.crowdsupply.com/kosagi/novena-open-laptop https://www.crowdsupply.com/kosagi/novena-open-laptop (ok, you could also buy an Asus laptop or something that would be nice looking enough, and cheaper than a novena laptop). Another point, is that when you're at home, with a linux laptop, you can spend two days configuring the wifi. But when you're going out to a conference, MacOSX shows its worth. Oh, and for several MacOSX versions now you can map the modifier keys as you wish, in the System Preferences / Keyboard panel. MacOSX is not entirely proprietary. Darwin is open sourced (in large part). And as developers, we use a lot of free software on MacOSX, starting with emacs, and all the linux tools you can get from MacPorts or Homebrew. Right, because between ourselves, the BSD tools provided by Apple suck. But actually, it's the econony, stupid! ;-) As a Linux hacker, I much prefer to earn the money I need to pay for taxes, internet, electricity, food and shelter (oh, and clothing, sometimes you get to go to conferences), developing applications on a unix machine like MacOSX, or iOS, rather than on MS-Windows. (Yes, there's also Android, but java...) So don't make a mistake, the main workstation is a Linux box, and even while developing MacOSX application, most of the code is written from the Linux box, even if it's compiled by Xcode on the MacOSX system nearby. Because, honestly, Linux is much more ergonomical! (if only because you really can configure it as you wish (and also strangeley, the keyboard feels much more responsive with linux than with MacOXS, let alone MS-Windows)). Anyways, remember, the Network is the computer! But most customers are still MS-Windows users, or MacOSX or iOS users, (or Android users right). So while you keep Linux close to the heart, you have to have a MacOSX system to earn your living. (And there's also the possibility to run MacOSX on a Virtual Machine on Linux, but let's be honest, it means that legally you still have to own Apple hardware).

ohyes 12y ago
The wifi thing was true a few years ago, but isn't anymore if you are using a mainstream distribution like Ubuntu or Fedora.
- danford 12y ago
  Thing is, the parents comment makes no sense because it's implying that your wifi drivers would stop working if you connected to different wifi. OS X has plenty of problems, see: http://www.imore.com/os-x-mavericks-problems-drive-me-nuts-how-about-you http://www.imore.com/os-x-mavericks-problems-drive-me-nuts-h... I've personally experienced many of these my self. OS X is cool, but I wish the fan base would stop acting like it never has any bugs or issues. OS X does get bugs, OS X does crash, OS X can break, OS X does not always 'just work'. Just go to discussion.apple.com and look at all the issues everyone is having. OS X is a great OS though, but it's not infallible.

Veratyr 12y ago

For me it's a few things: - The battery life is very, very good and combined with the screen (Retina 13"), made it perfect for me. - It's still a POSIX environment so I can still use most of what I had from Linux without issue. - It doesn't require as much maintenance as Linux. I don't have to fiddle with things to get it to work the way I want, it already does that. - The hardware support has been great whenever I've had issues.

danford 12y ago
>It doesn't require as much maintenance as Linux. What maintenance does Linux require? The only thing I can think you might be implying is that there are bugs caused by updating that cause system issues frequently and this is simply untrue. Software updates have been known to cause issues on all systems, and I can find plenty of results on google showing OS X having issues after updates. Linux, in my experience, is the "set it and forget it" operating system. OS X is great though, just not for everyone (personally the environment doesn't have the capabilities I look for in an OS).
- Osiris 12y ago
  I get scared everytime I do an apt-get update because I've had it break my Linux box more than once, sometimes horribly (especially when doing a dist-upgrade to get a new kernel). It's even worse when the Nvidia drivers don't automatically recompile for the new kernel. I've had many upgrade that resulted in no functional X-Window session so I had to use the terminal to download and recompile the video drivers. I realize that's a problem with binary blobs rather than open source drivers, but it's also a reality.
  - reedlaw 12y ago
    I had that fear under Ubuntu because a new dist upgrade is usually especially unstable. Now that I use Arch I don't fear upgrades. I do perform them fairly often though, because massive upgrades in general can be problematic.
  - greyfade 12y ago

matobago 12y ago

Easy... OSX comes with the best hardware and you can develop in any programing language... not the same for Windows

kelnos 12y ago
Who's talking about Windows here? We're talking about Linux. And you can, with a bit of effort, run Linux on a MacBook. Yes, it's not for everyone, and it took a good 10 months from the last MacBook Air release before I could run Linux natively on it (without VMWare), but for those of us who really like Linux, it's worth it. I totally get that the effort is not worth it for lots of people, though.

Stwerp 12y ago

>The most irritating thing was the keyboard which could not be mapped in the "standard" PC way (i.e. Ctrl Super Alt in the bottom left). That's funny. After using a mac for several years, that's my biggest gripe about working on most linux boxes. OS X separates text viewing and editing functions (C-f, C-k, C-a, etc in eamcs parlance) from system functions (S-c :: copy, S-v :: paste, S-w :: close window). In Linux, ctrl-A will either get you a cursor at column one, or select everything. I wish it were easier to define these actions system-wide the way OS X does.

reedlaw 12y ago
True, there are application-specific mappings in Linux. But what gets me is the Mac keyboard layout is asymmetrical. The right-hand side does not include a Meta (Alt) key. That makes efficient keyboarding extremely inconvenient.

dagw 12y ago

The quality of the Macbook Air outweighs any downsides having to use OS X (which I agree isn't that great). And OS X isn't so bad that it's worth my while to try to run Linux on my Mac.