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The point that most of you are missing is that the NSA's intelligence gathering activity and activities of that class are completely unrelated to these charges.

The point that most of you are missing is that the NSA's intelligence gathering activity and activities of that class are completely unrelated to these charges. They are being charged with economic hacking activities. Trade secrets were being lifted and handed to Chinese companies. An analog would be like the NSA harvesting data from Samsung and then passing it to Apple, which is the type of stuff that we have no evidence of thus far. Regardless of your feelings on the NSA's actions, this isn't the same type of "all countries hack each other" activity. And if you think metal and solar companies are the only one suffering these sorts of attacks, you're crazy. I think it's just that the other victims don't want to be named publicly for a variety of reasons. This sort of activity is a serious problem, but you can't just file charges all willy-nilly. Fortunately the U.S. already had economic actions in motion through resolution channels pertaining to the dumping of solar tech, so it makes this sort of thing much easier to do I think.

Loughla 12y ago
I honestly thought it was a very public 'secret' that China and Chinese companies 'adopt' much of their technology from elsewhere. Why else are we advised to travel with (essentially) burner laptops and phones when in China? Is that not the case? If it's not, is this really the first time the US has had ample evidence or incentive to move forward?
- anExcitedBeast 12y ago
  US-Sino relations are volatile. I'm sure this has been discussed privately for years, but it was politically risky to talk about publicly. This is the first time they decided to take it public with force.
Phlarp 12y ago
>They are being charged with economic hacking activities. Trade secrets were being lifted and handed to Chinese companies. An analog would be like the NSA harvesting data from Samsung and then passing it to Apple Yes, of course, the bright red line isn't international espionage, it's economic espionage! [1] [1]http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-brazil-oil-petrobras http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-braz...
- calibraxis 12y ago
  The US is bombarded with the ideology that politics and economics are separate subjects. When naturally, the point of that distinction is to severely mislead. (Capitalism itself couldn't exist without a huge infrastructure of laws and violence which supports it, like violence towards people who violate abstract social rights to "property".)
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
anon1385 12y ago
>An analog would be like the NSA harvesting data from Samsung and then passing it to Apple, which is the type of stuff that we have no evidence of thus far. What ? We've known that the NSA was engaging in corporate espionage on behalf of American corporations for a long time now and the American government doesn't even deny it: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/820758.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/820758.stm (from 2000) >The journalist, who has spent much of his life investigating Echelon, has offered two alleged instances of US snooping in the 1990s, which he says followed the newly-elected Clinton administration's policy of "aggressive advocacy" for US firms bidding for foreign contracts. The first came from a Baltimore Sun report which said the European consortium Airbus lost a $6bn contract with Saudi Arabia after NSA found Airbus officials were offering kickbacks to a Saudi official. The paper said the agency "lifted all the faxes and phone-calls between Airbus, the Saudi national airline and the Saudi Government" to gain this information. Mr Campbell also alleges that the US firm Raytheon used information picked up from NSA snooping to secure a $1.4bn contract to supply a radar system to Brazil instead of France's Thomson-CSF. >former CIA director James Woolsey, in an article in March for the Wall Street Journal, acknowledged that the US did conduct economic espionage against its European allies, though he did not specify if Echelon was involved.
- mikecb 12y ago
  That's not the same thing as stealing trade secrets and giving them to a domestic company.
  - loceng 12y ago
    True, though then France and other countries should be filing charges against the U.S. then, right?
    - mikecb 12y ago
      True, and they are welcome to do so, though France might not be in the best position given the breadth and depth of its reported economic espionage of specific trade secrets and such.
pkinsky 12y ago
How is the PLA hacking American companies and accessing designs different from the NSA hacking Huawei and accessing source code? Their justifications differ, but not their actions.
- anExcitedBeast 12y ago
  In case A, the PLA hands the data off to Chinese competitors for economic gain. In case B, no such activity happens. There's no economic leverage, just intel. We know the Chinese spy on us for strategic reasons, and we're not filing a case against that activity. Basically, the military is acting as an arm of corporate espionage. That's a big no-no.
  - insuffi 12y ago
    Except corporate espionage is not just about economic leverage, it can also be just about intel. You don't have to steal IP for it to be corporate espionage. Basically, the military is acting as an arm of corporate espionage. In the US.
  - pkinsky 12y ago
    In case B, the NSA might not hand a briefcase of schematics to US companies for economic gain. But they have used stolen data to influence trade negotiations for the benefit of US companies. In both cases, the military could be said to have acted as an arm of corporate espionage, no?
    - droope 12y ago
      > In case B, the NSA might not hand a briefcase of schematics to US companies for economic gain Saying that the NSA wouldn't do that is stupid, and anybody who says otherwise is either ignorant or otherwise malicious. The US government aids its corporations in every way it can, and it has done so throughout its history.
0grr 12y ago
1. The NSA have been implicated in economic hacking/spying/espionage throughout the Snowden leaks. 2. The only - ONLY - country to have engaged in cyber WARFARE, is the United States; by unleashing stuxnet/flame on another sovereign state. This is beyond hypocritical of the Americans. Not only does the US violate their own and international laws but to have the gall to stand in front of the world and sanctimoniously blow their own trumpet, it's disgusting.
- wil421 12y ago
  >1. The NSA have been implicated in economic hacking/spying/espionage throughout the Snowden leaks. Do you have a source? Curious because I have only seen things related to eavesdropping or bulk data collection. I am wondering if I missed something major.
  - ryoshu 12y ago
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-brazil-oil-petrobras http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-braz...
    - wil421 12y ago
      I see no proof on that page. I just see the word of a reporter, on most of his other reports there were links to slides or documents. I hope this part is true: >"What we do not do, as we have said many times, is use our foreign intelligence capabilities to steal the trade secrets of foreign companies on behalf of – or give intelligence we collect to – US companies to enhance their international competitiveness or increase their bottom line." Sounds like they are capturing data like this but not giving it you. What would they need it for? I dont see an honest reason or response.
      - mike_hearn 12y ago
        Whatever the NSA say, the opposite is true. Whatever Snowden has provided, has been found true. Come on. Wake up. They crossed every single line so far anyone can imagine. Of course they're doing industrial espionage.
VLM 12y ago
"which is the type of stuff that we have no evidence of thus far" Not so. I apologize for putting you in the position of trying to prove a negative but http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/03/world/no-morsel-too-minuscule-for-all-consuming-nsa.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/03/world/no-morsel-too-minusc... specifically lists by topic "... the agency’s official mission list includes using its surveillance powers to achieve ... “economic advantage” over Japan and Brazil, among other countries." Their own list of customers includes "United States Trade Representative"... Combine the revolving door policy between .gov and .com with the merger of .com and .gov for all practical purposes, and ...
jellicle 12y ago
>NSA harvesting data from Samsung and then passing it to Apple, which is the type of stuff that we have no evidence of thus far. There have been many, many stories published in the world's leading newspapers about NSA industrial espionage: http://www.globalresearch.ca/nsa-busted-conducting-industrial-espionage-in-france-mexico-brazil-china-and-all-around-the-world/5355026 http://www.globalresearch.ca/nsa-busted-conducting-industria... The NSA's own slides list "economic" as one of the main reasons for spying. And none of this is at all new: https://www.fas.org/irp/program/process/991101-echelon-mj.htm https://www.fas.org/irp/program/process/991101-echelon-mj.ht... http://www.motherjones.com/politics/1999/11/outfront-0 http://www.motherjones.com/politics/1999/11/outfront-0 I would also point out that U.S. law specifically criminalizes economic espionage on behalf of foreign governments, but economic espionage on behalf of the U.S. government is not illegal. TL;DR: It's absurd to think that the NSA isn't spying for economic information. Tons of evidence has been presented.
dguaraglia 12y ago
I can't think of any other reason besides economic hacking activities for tapping into Angela Merkel's (or Dilma Roussef's, or any other head of state) cellphone. So yeah, we do play this game too, at a different scale. Not petty IP theft, but geopolitical buggery.
dreamfactory2 12y ago
US and UK agencies openly state that their mission includes economic interests e.g. http://www.gchq.gov.uk/how_we_work/running_the_business/oversight/Pages/the-law.aspx http://www.gchq.gov.uk/how_we_work/running_the_business/over... "We are primarily a foreign-focused intelligence agency, with a signals intelligence role that can only be exercised for three limited purposes: In the interests of national security In the interests of the economic well-being of the UK In support of the prevention or detection of serious crime."
grey-area 12y ago
An analog would be like the NSA harvesting data from Samsung and then passing it to Apple This sort of activity is a serious problem, and the NSA does engage in it. The US is no better than other countries in this regard. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-brazil-oil-petrobras http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-braz... http://thehill.com/policy/international/198506-report-spies-watched-us-lawyers-in-trade-deal http://thehill.com/policy/international/198506-report-spies-... http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/09/12/huawei_accuses_nsa_of_illegal_practices_after_spying_revelation.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/09/12/huawei_ac... http://www.globalresearch.ca/nsa-busted-conducting-industrial-espionage-in-france-mexico-brazil-china-and-all-around-the-world/5355026 http://www.globalresearch.ca/nsa-busted-conducting-industria...
- tzs 12y ago
  Did you accidentally post the wrong links? None of those provided more than speculation about the scenario under discussion (spying on foreign companies and passing the data to domestic companies). Mostly, all they discuss is spying against foreign governments or on government owned companies.
Gonzih 12y ago
There was clear information that "If Agency will find that information gathered from NSA program will benefit to US it will be used, even if it's private commercial information". So yes, it's related to NSA. And very funny.
mcv 12y ago
> An analog would be like the NSA harvesting data from Samsung and then passing it to Apple, which is the type of stuff that we have no evidence of thus far. Not entirely true. Years ago, there was a big scandal where Boeing and Airbus were in a bidding war, and a US intelligence agency passed some vital data to Boeing in order to ensure the economic health of a big military contractor. (Unfortunately I have trouble finding a good source; googling for Boeing/Airbus scandals turns up a crazy number of results. I now find myself wondering why the one I remembered stood out.)

Loughla 12y ago

I honestly thought it was a very public 'secret' that China and Chinese companies 'adopt' much of their technology from elsewhere. Why else are we advised to travel with (essentially) burner laptops and phones when in China? Is that not the case? If it's not, is this really the first time the US has had ample evidence or incentive to move forward?

anExcitedBeast 12y ago
US-Sino relations are volatile. I'm sure this has been discussed privately for years, but it was politically risky to talk about publicly. This is the first time they decided to take it public with force.

Phlarp 12y ago

>They are being charged with economic hacking activities. Trade secrets were being lifted and handed to Chinese companies. An analog would be like the NSA harvesting data from Samsung and then passing it to Apple Yes, of course, the bright red line isn't international espionage, it's economic espionage! [1] [1]http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-brazil-oil-petrobras http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-braz...

calibraxis 12y ago
The US is bombarded with the ideology that politics and economics are separate subjects. When naturally, the point of that distinction is to severely mislead. (Capitalism itself couldn't exist without a huge infrastructure of laws and violence which supports it, like violence towards people who violate abstract social rights to "property".)

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

anon1385 12y ago

>An analog would be like the NSA harvesting data from Samsung and then passing it to Apple, which is the type of stuff that we have no evidence of thus far. What ? We've known that the NSA was engaging in corporate espionage on behalf of American corporations for a long time now and the American government doesn't even deny it: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/820758.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/820758.stm (from 2000) >The journalist, who has spent much of his life investigating Echelon, has offered two alleged instances of US snooping in the 1990s, which he says followed the newly-elected Clinton administration's policy of "aggressive advocacy" for US firms bidding for foreign contracts. The first came from a Baltimore Sun report which said the European consortium Airbus lost a $6bn contract with Saudi Arabia after NSA found Airbus officials were offering kickbacks to a Saudi official. The paper said the agency "lifted all the faxes and phone-calls between Airbus, the Saudi national airline and the Saudi Government" to gain this information. Mr Campbell also alleges that the US firm Raytheon used information picked up from NSA snooping to secure a $1.4bn contract to supply a radar system to Brazil instead of France's Thomson-CSF. >former CIA director James Woolsey, in an article in March for the Wall Street Journal, acknowledged that the US did conduct economic espionage against its European allies, though he did not specify if Echelon was involved.

mikecb 12y ago
That's not the same thing as stealing trade secrets and giving them to a domestic company.
- loceng 12y ago
  True, though then France and other countries should be filing charges against the U.S. then, right?
  - mikecb 12y ago
    True, and they are welcome to do so, though France might not be in the best position given the breadth and depth of its reported economic espionage of specific trade secrets and such.

pkinsky 12y ago

How is the PLA hacking American companies and accessing designs different from the NSA hacking Huawei and accessing source code? Their justifications differ, but not their actions.

anExcitedBeast 12y ago
In case A, the PLA hands the data off to Chinese competitors for economic gain. In case B, no such activity happens. There's no economic leverage, just intel. We know the Chinese spy on us for strategic reasons, and we're not filing a case against that activity. Basically, the military is acting as an arm of corporate espionage. That's a big no-no.
- insuffi 12y ago
  Except corporate espionage is not just about economic leverage, it can also be just about intel. You don't have to steal IP for it to be corporate espionage. Basically, the military is acting as an arm of corporate espionage. In the US.
- pkinsky 12y ago
  In case B, the NSA might not hand a briefcase of schematics to US companies for economic gain. But they have used stolen data to influence trade negotiations for the benefit of US companies. In both cases, the military could be said to have acted as an arm of corporate espionage, no?
  - droope 12y ago
    > In case B, the NSA might not hand a briefcase of schematics to US companies for economic gain Saying that the NSA wouldn't do that is stupid, and anybody who says otherwise is either ignorant or otherwise malicious. The US government aids its corporations in every way it can, and it has done so throughout its history.

0grr 12y ago

1. The NSA have been implicated in economic hacking/spying/espionage throughout the Snowden leaks. 2. The only - ONLY - country to have engaged in cyber WARFARE, is the United States; by unleashing stuxnet/flame on another sovereign state. This is beyond hypocritical of the Americans. Not only does the US violate their own and international laws but to have the gall to stand in front of the world and sanctimoniously blow their own trumpet, it's disgusting.

wil421 12y ago
>1. The NSA have been implicated in economic hacking/spying/espionage throughout the Snowden leaks. Do you have a source? Curious because I have only seen things related to eavesdropping or bulk data collection. I am wondering if I missed something major.
- ryoshu 12y ago
  http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-brazil-oil-petrobras http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-braz...
  - wil421 12y ago
    I see no proof on that page. I just see the word of a reporter, on most of his other reports there were links to slides or documents. I hope this part is true: >"What we do not do, as we have said many times, is use our foreign intelligence capabilities to steal the trade secrets of foreign companies on behalf of – or give intelligence we collect to – US companies to enhance their international competitiveness or increase their bottom line." Sounds like they are capturing data like this but not giving it you. What would they need it for? I dont see an honest reason or response.
    - mike_hearn 12y ago
      Whatever the NSA say, the opposite is true. Whatever Snowden has provided, has been found true. Come on. Wake up. They crossed every single line so far anyone can imagine. Of course they're doing industrial espionage.

VLM 12y ago

"which is the type of stuff that we have no evidence of thus far" Not so. I apologize for putting you in the position of trying to prove a negative but http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/03/world/no-morsel-too-minuscule-for-all-consuming-nsa.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/03/world/no-morsel-too-minusc... specifically lists by topic "... the agency’s official mission list includes using its surveillance powers to achieve ... “economic advantage” over Japan and Brazil, among other countries." Their own list of customers includes "United States Trade Representative"... Combine the revolving door policy between .gov and .com with the merger of .com and .gov for all practical purposes, and ...

jellicle 12y ago

>NSA harvesting data from Samsung and then passing it to Apple, which is the type of stuff that we have no evidence of thus far. There have been many, many stories published in the world's leading newspapers about NSA industrial espionage: http://www.globalresearch.ca/nsa-busted-conducting-industrial-espionage-in-france-mexico-brazil-china-and-all-around-the-world/5355026 http://www.globalresearch.ca/nsa-busted-conducting-industria... The NSA's own slides list "economic" as one of the main reasons for spying. And none of this is at all new: https://www.fas.org/irp/program/process/991101-echelon-mj.htm https://www.fas.org/irp/program/process/991101-echelon-mj.ht... http://www.motherjones.com/politics/1999/11/outfront-0 http://www.motherjones.com/politics/1999/11/outfront-0 I would also point out that U.S. law specifically criminalizes economic espionage on behalf of foreign governments, but economic espionage on behalf of the U.S. government is not illegal. TL;DR: It's absurd to think that the NSA isn't spying for economic information. Tons of evidence has been presented.

dguaraglia 12y ago

I can't think of any other reason besides economic hacking activities for tapping into Angela Merkel's (or Dilma Roussef's, or any other head of state) cellphone. So yeah, we do play this game too, at a different scale. Not petty IP theft, but geopolitical buggery.

dreamfactory2 12y ago

US and UK agencies openly state that their mission includes economic interests e.g. http://www.gchq.gov.uk/how_we_work/running_the_business/oversight/Pages/the-law.aspx http://www.gchq.gov.uk/how_we_work/running_the_business/over... "We are primarily a foreign-focused intelligence agency, with a signals intelligence role that can only be exercised for three limited purposes: In the interests of national security In the interests of the economic well-being of the UK In support of the prevention or detection of serious crime."

grey-area 12y ago

An analog would be like the NSA harvesting data from Samsung and then passing it to Apple This sort of activity is a serious problem, and the NSA does engage in it. The US is no better than other countries in this regard. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-brazil-oil-petrobras http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-braz... http://thehill.com/policy/international/198506-report-spies-watched-us-lawyers-in-trade-deal http://thehill.com/policy/international/198506-report-spies-... http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/09/12/huawei_accuses_nsa_of_illegal_practices_after_spying_revelation.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/09/12/huawei_ac... http://www.globalresearch.ca/nsa-busted-conducting-industrial-espionage-in-france-mexico-brazil-china-and-all-around-the-world/5355026 http://www.globalresearch.ca/nsa-busted-conducting-industria...

tzs 12y ago
Did you accidentally post the wrong links? None of those provided more than speculation about the scenario under discussion (spying on foreign companies and passing the data to domestic companies). Mostly, all they discuss is spying against foreign governments or on government owned companies.

Gonzih 12y ago

There was clear information that "If Agency will find that information gathered from NSA program will benefit to US it will be used, even if it's private commercial information". So yes, it's related to NSA. And very funny.

mcv 12y ago

> An analog would be like the NSA harvesting data from Samsung and then passing it to Apple, which is the type of stuff that we have no evidence of thus far. Not entirely true. Years ago, there was a big scandal where Boeing and Airbus were in a bidding war, and a US intelligence agency passed some vital data to Boeing in order to ensure the economic health of a big military contractor. (Unfortunately I have trouble finding a good source; googling for Boeing/Airbus scandals turns up a crazy number of results. I now find myself wondering why the one I remembered stood out.)