12 ms·

Detroit has bounced off the bottom. While we might exult in the ruin-porn of Detroit, it is a city on the mend, and is really an interesting city full of signif

by personZ 12y ago

Detroit has bounced off the bottom. While we might exult in the ruin-porn of Detroit, it is a city on the mend, and is really an interesting city full of significant potential. I say that as a Canadian who travels to Detroit from the Toronto area, never feeling a moment of fear but enjoying some great restaurants, entertainment, and sports. Go Lions!

camus2 12y ago
I guess we didnt visit the same place... Detroit is a dump and nobody wants to pick up the tab.
- personZ 12y ago
  The downtown is resurgent, and is certainly not a dump. Many of the suburbs are very affluent. There is a large area that is in very dire shape (which is, of course, the area that people focus on when they seek their ruin porn), but is no worse than it was 20 years ago, and in most cases is significantly better. Detroit had been in decline for many, many decades. It hit bottom and is getting better.
  - olmucky 12y ago
    "There is a large area that is in very dire shape... but is no worse than it was 20 years ago" This is absolutely untrue. I live in Detroit and work with its property data on a daily basis. The physical state of the city has deteriorated significantly since the financial crisis of 2008-9. The downtown that is resurgent encompasses 7.2 of 139 square miles. Most of the city has not bottomed out. People continue to leave, properties continue to burn, and the news of Detroit's resurgence remains greatly overstated. Take a look here to see how Detroit has fared since 2008: http://goobingdetroit.tumblr.com/ http://goobingdetroit.tumblr.com/
    - sp332 12y ago
      If you're having trouble relating to the numbers, here's a great episode of Parts Unknown that shows how bad Detroit is now, hosted by a guy who really likes Detroit. http://www.cnn.com/video/shows/anthony-bourdain-parts-unknown/season-2/detroit/index.html http://www.cnn.com/video/shows/anthony-bourdain-parts-unknow... (not so much the videos, but the text below.)
    - antidaily 12y ago
      You work in property data -- tell us more. Are you buying? Selling? Neither?
      - olmucky 12y ago
        Neither. I work with a company that tracks property data - taxes, foreclosures, assessment, etc - in Detroit at www.whydontweownthis.com
    - sltkr 12y ago
      > Take a look here to see how Detroit has fared since 2008: http://goobingdetroit.tumblr.com/ http://goobingdetroit.tumblr.com/ Those are interesting photos, but how do we know whether they are representative of an overall trend? Those locations seem to be selected manually to show houses in decay -- it's not a random sample, and it's probably not a representative sample. Nobody doubts that there are decaying buildings in Detroit, but to see how Detroit has faired overall, you would need to look at the big picture, including properties that have been restored or rebuilt, but that weblog doesn't show that.
    - spitfire 12y ago
      Any references where you could get structured data about property, demographics, etc?
    - acjohnson55 12y ago
      I agree with you. My father grew up in Detroit and I still have plenty of family there. What people don't understand is the scale of the problem and how far it has gone. I really can't see the situation changing unless Detroit either consolidates with some of its healthier suburbs or divests the massive amount of land that's currently draining its very limited resources. I don't think we can declare the city to be in rebound just because a kernel of affluence is reemerging. There's a looong way to go.
    - personZ 12y ago
      I suppose I do take a more macro level view, and have essentially written off many of the neighborhoods (what the banks and others should have done long ago). There are detached little islands of residents trying to make a stand, but -- as that blog shows -- they can't. Much of Detroit the urban area should be returned to nature and then, in a planned and considered fashion, built out again. To some degree this is happening, and it's interesting that many of the blog posts show houses in a very high level of disrepair, followed by an empty field: For the good of Detroit, the empty field is often a better state, and the bail-out Detroit should have gotten is billions to tear down houses and remediate lands that are long past the point of no return. The resurgence does absolutely have to do with the sense of pride in the city, and the sense that it is a city for doing business, both required for the city to come back. Neither of those help houses neglected for decades on remote strips of perilous streets with no rational civic services.
  - DerpDerpDerp 12y ago
    The suburbs being affluent does nothing to alleviate the problems that Detroit faces, which are largely having to do with a lack of taxes, because those suburbs don't increase the tax base of Detroit itself. They're the people fleeing the problems of Detroit and leaving it to burn while they watch from next door.
  - pyre 12y ago
    > Many of the suburbs are very affluent. This has been true for a while, but somehow didn't prevent the city from hitting rock-bottom. How is this relevant now?
  - enraged_camel 12y ago
    >>Many of the suburbs are very affluent. They are also gated communities that have the worst "Fuck You, Got Mine" mentality. Mostly white and heavily racist, to the point where companies require their delivery-people who serve those areas to be white (because people in those neighborhoods won't open their doors for blacks). Seriously, a very small part of the city core may be rebounding, but Detroit as a whole will remain a hell-hole for at least a decade.
    - zo1 12y ago
      "They are also gated communities that have the worst "Fuck You, Got Mine" mentality." Oh, so what mentality would you like them to have? How about: "Here, come on in, we missed you since the last riot!" I'm completely not understanding this weird jump of yours where you go from "gated communities" to stereotyping such behavior as one that is due to a "Fuck You, Got Mine" attitude. Oh and it's mostly by racist white people, according to you. Just let people be, and quit trying to meddle. It's really not rocket science. Why do you have to vilify people you don't like? If they were doing something truly bad, then you wouldn't need to vilify them by calling them racists or selfish. I think, deep down, you know you have no argument. And you're simply fishing for approval by throwing around boogey-words that people are accustomed to reacting to in the way you want.
      - techsupporter 12y ago
        The answer to how the original person makes this leap is found in the "white flight" debate of the 1960s to 1980s. It's a point of reference that a lot of people on HN don't have (I do not, in any way, want to sound like I'm being demeaning or patronizing; it is an item for discussion, nothing more, and certainly not as an insult). Having experienced it, and coming from a family that did, basically, just that, the "f-ck you I've got mine" is what drove a lot of that behavior. It could be more accurately expressed as "f-ck you guys, I'm out of here because I have the social, financial, and legal methods to do so," since a lot of the "good" neighborhoods had redlining practices that predated the mass exodus and, even though they became illegal, were still quietly, subtly enforced by real estate agents, mortgage brokers, and nearby property owners. A major symbol of white flight is the rise of the gated community. They gave a way to erect a literal barricade against the undesirables, regardless of skin color but always against "shady" characters. The last problem is that white flight, and subsequent "I have money"-flight (again, regardless of skin color), essentially drained the urban cities like Detroit, Dallas, Pittsburgh, Atlanta, and Chicago. Some of these are bouncing back--like Dallas--and some not so much. Areas we think of as "Chicago" are, in fact, separate legal municipalities propped up by the massive influx of wealth. The people who lived there commuted into the urban cores, generally on highways paid for on the backs of the people left in the urban areas, to jobs that contribute little to the city where they are located, and then fled back to their quiet suburb where they could enjoy "having theirs." Is there anything, individually, wrong with what they did? Absolutely not. Those who "fled" took the opportunities available to do them and did so out of an interest of self-worth. The whole point behind flinging "f-ck you, I got mine" as a derogatory remark is that it is half taking out frustrations on a societal dysfunction, half human nature.
cfredmond 12y ago
things are definitely changing. downtown + midtown are nothing like they were just a few years ago. the neighbourhoods are another story; i'd go as far as saying they haven't been worse...
patmcguire 12y ago
I've been hearing this every year for a while. The year Detroit turns it around seems to be the same as the year of linux on the desktop - this year, but then not.
bilbo0s 12y ago
It is interesting how the international view of Detroit differs from the domestic view of Detroit. Americans, as far as I can tell, view Detroit with what strikes me as hostility almost. Not all... but a lot of Americans that I have heard speak on the issue. And I say that as an American. Whereas elsewhere in the world, the view is... a bit different. I think the "grit" brand positioning fits... since most of the brands trying to tie into Detroit are luxury. I think it will work well. But I don't think you could market many things to the average American using Brand Detroit. Maybe cars ... that Eminem Chrysler 300 commercial was pretty good. Just saying that the view of a Canadian, or Frenchman, or a German of Detroit will, in all likelihood, be different from the view of an American of Detroit... Even though none of the people holding the opinions French, Canadian, German or American have actually ever visited Detroit.
- Jare 12y ago
  For what is worth, my view of Detroit as a Spaniard was shaped by a) dangerous and violent Robocop, b) the rough play of the Dennis Rodman era's Pistons, and c) the poor and depressed world of Eminem. I don't know if younger foreigners have different references.
- personZ 12y ago
  Americans, as far as I can tell, view Detroit with what strikes me as hostility almost. You don't have to go far to find Canadians who view Detroit as a North American Mogadishu. Such an opinion has a strong correlation with racism, it's worth noting: Detroit must be the perilous worst because it is held to represent black America. As to the "never actually visited", do you claim that most, or even a remote minority of Americans have "actually ever visited Detroit"? Of course they haven't. They laugh and point and repost and share the ruin porn because, ha ha, look at Detroit. In any case, it was a pretty bizarre claim to use in response to my post given that I expressly said that I go to Detroit almost regularly. Indeed, "Canadians" in Southern Ontario almost certainly know more about Detroit than the bulk of Americans, for obvious geographical and practicality reasons. Now maybe I'm not going to the "real" Detroit in some people's opinion, in that I am in built up urban areas and affluent suburbs, but it is a part of the whole of Detroit.
Shivetya 12y ago
Dunno, all that separates today's Detroit from Robocop's Detroit are the robotic police units, well until they arm the drones. You have the yuppie Detroit and the rest. Doesn't look very different that some Mexican cities recently in the news, wealth on one side of the fence and the poor excluded. oh sure, they get subsidies and such, carefully factored to insure their incentive to take from those on other side of the fence doesn't occur. Until all that urban blight is settled Detroit isn't back. This is just a game to get the bonds people and such back in the game after bankruptcy goes through.

by personZ 12y ago

camus2 12y ago

I guess we didnt visit the same place... Detroit is a dump and nobody wants to pick up the tab.

personZ 12y ago
The downtown is resurgent, and is certainly not a dump. Many of the suburbs are very affluent. There is a large area that is in very dire shape (which is, of course, the area that people focus on when they seek their ruin porn), but is no worse than it was 20 years ago, and in most cases is significantly better. Detroit had been in decline for many, many decades. It hit bottom and is getting better.
- olmucky 12y ago
  "There is a large area that is in very dire shape... but is no worse than it was 20 years ago" This is absolutely untrue. I live in Detroit and work with its property data on a daily basis. The physical state of the city has deteriorated significantly since the financial crisis of 2008-9. The downtown that is resurgent encompasses 7.2 of 139 square miles. Most of the city has not bottomed out. People continue to leave, properties continue to burn, and the news of Detroit's resurgence remains greatly overstated. Take a look here to see how Detroit has fared since 2008: http://goobingdetroit.tumblr.com/ http://goobingdetroit.tumblr.com/
  - sp332 12y ago
    If you're having trouble relating to the numbers, here's a great episode of Parts Unknown that shows how bad Detroit is now, hosted by a guy who really likes Detroit. http://www.cnn.com/video/shows/anthony-bourdain-parts-unknown/season-2/detroit/index.html http://www.cnn.com/video/shows/anthony-bourdain-parts-unknow... (not so much the videos, but the text below.)
  - antidaily 12y ago
    You work in property data -- tell us more. Are you buying? Selling? Neither?
    - olmucky 12y ago
      Neither. I work with a company that tracks property data - taxes, foreclosures, assessment, etc - in Detroit at www.whydontweownthis.com
  - sltkr 12y ago
    > Take a look here to see how Detroit has fared since 2008: http://goobingdetroit.tumblr.com/ http://goobingdetroit.tumblr.com/ Those are interesting photos, but how do we know whether they are representative of an overall trend? Those locations seem to be selected manually to show houses in decay -- it's not a random sample, and it's probably not a representative sample. Nobody doubts that there are decaying buildings in Detroit, but to see how Detroit has faired overall, you would need to look at the big picture, including properties that have been restored or rebuilt, but that weblog doesn't show that.
  - spitfire 12y ago
    Any references where you could get structured data about property, demographics, etc?
  - acjohnson55 12y ago
    I agree with you. My father grew up in Detroit and I still have plenty of family there. What people don't understand is the scale of the problem and how far it has gone. I really can't see the situation changing unless Detroit either consolidates with some of its healthier suburbs or divests the massive amount of land that's currently draining its very limited resources. I don't think we can declare the city to be in rebound just because a kernel of affluence is reemerging. There's a looong way to go.
  - personZ 12y ago
    I suppose I do take a more macro level view, and have essentially written off many of the neighborhoods (what the banks and others should have done long ago). There are detached little islands of residents trying to make a stand, but -- as that blog shows -- they can't. Much of Detroit the urban area should be returned to nature and then, in a planned and considered fashion, built out again. To some degree this is happening, and it's interesting that many of the blog posts show houses in a very high level of disrepair, followed by an empty field: For the good of Detroit, the empty field is often a better state, and the bail-out Detroit should have gotten is billions to tear down houses and remediate lands that are long past the point of no return. The resurgence does absolutely have to do with the sense of pride in the city, and the sense that it is a city for doing business, both required for the city to come back. Neither of those help houses neglected for decades on remote strips of perilous streets with no rational civic services.
- DerpDerpDerp 12y ago
  The suburbs being affluent does nothing to alleviate the problems that Detroit faces, which are largely having to do with a lack of taxes, because those suburbs don't increase the tax base of Detroit itself. They're the people fleeing the problems of Detroit and leaving it to burn while they watch from next door.
- pyre 12y ago
  > Many of the suburbs are very affluent. This has been true for a while, but somehow didn't prevent the city from hitting rock-bottom. How is this relevant now?
- enraged_camel 12y ago
  >>Many of the suburbs are very affluent. They are also gated communities that have the worst "Fuck You, Got Mine" mentality. Mostly white and heavily racist, to the point where companies require their delivery-people who serve those areas to be white (because people in those neighborhoods won't open their doors for blacks). Seriously, a very small part of the city core may be rebounding, but Detroit as a whole will remain a hell-hole for at least a decade.
  - zo1 12y ago
    "They are also gated communities that have the worst "Fuck You, Got Mine" mentality." Oh, so what mentality would you like them to have? How about: "Here, come on in, we missed you since the last riot!" I'm completely not understanding this weird jump of yours where you go from "gated communities" to stereotyping such behavior as one that is due to a "Fuck You, Got Mine" attitude. Oh and it's mostly by racist white people, according to you. Just let people be, and quit trying to meddle. It's really not rocket science. Why do you have to vilify people you don't like? If they were doing something truly bad, then you wouldn't need to vilify them by calling them racists or selfish. I think, deep down, you know you have no argument. And you're simply fishing for approval by throwing around boogey-words that people are accustomed to reacting to in the way you want.
    - techsupporter 12y ago
      The answer to how the original person makes this leap is found in the "white flight" debate of the 1960s to 1980s. It's a point of reference that a lot of people on HN don't have (I do not, in any way, want to sound like I'm being demeaning or patronizing; it is an item for discussion, nothing more, and certainly not as an insult). Having experienced it, and coming from a family that did, basically, just that, the "f-ck you I've got mine" is what drove a lot of that behavior. It could be more accurately expressed as "f-ck you guys, I'm out of here because I have the social, financial, and legal methods to do so," since a lot of the "good" neighborhoods had redlining practices that predated the mass exodus and, even though they became illegal, were still quietly, subtly enforced by real estate agents, mortgage brokers, and nearby property owners. A major symbol of white flight is the rise of the gated community. They gave a way to erect a literal barricade against the undesirables, regardless of skin color but always against "shady" characters. The last problem is that white flight, and subsequent "I have money"-flight (again, regardless of skin color), essentially drained the urban cities like Detroit, Dallas, Pittsburgh, Atlanta, and Chicago. Some of these are bouncing back--like Dallas--and some not so much. Areas we think of as "Chicago" are, in fact, separate legal municipalities propped up by the massive influx of wealth. The people who lived there commuted into the urban cores, generally on highways paid for on the backs of the people left in the urban areas, to jobs that contribute little to the city where they are located, and then fled back to their quiet suburb where they could enjoy "having theirs." Is there anything, individually, wrong with what they did? Absolutely not. Those who "fled" took the opportunities available to do them and did so out of an interest of self-worth. The whole point behind flinging "f-ck you, I got mine" as a derogatory remark is that it is half taking out frustrations on a societal dysfunction, half human nature.

cfredmond 12y ago

things are definitely changing. downtown + midtown are nothing like they were just a few years ago. the neighbourhoods are another story; i'd go as far as saying they haven't been worse...

patmcguire 12y ago

I've been hearing this every year for a while. The year Detroit turns it around seems to be the same as the year of linux on the desktop - this year, but then not.

bilbo0s 12y ago

It is interesting how the international view of Detroit differs from the domestic view of Detroit. Americans, as far as I can tell, view Detroit with what strikes me as hostility almost. Not all... but a lot of Americans that I have heard speak on the issue. And I say that as an American. Whereas elsewhere in the world, the view is... a bit different. I think the "grit" brand positioning fits... since most of the brands trying to tie into Detroit are luxury. I think it will work well. But I don't think you could market many things to the average American using Brand Detroit. Maybe cars ... that Eminem Chrysler 300 commercial was pretty good. Just saying that the view of a Canadian, or Frenchman, or a German of Detroit will, in all likelihood, be different from the view of an American of Detroit... Even though none of the people holding the opinions French, Canadian, German or American have actually ever visited Detroit.

Jare 12y ago
For what is worth, my view of Detroit as a Spaniard was shaped by a) dangerous and violent Robocop, b) the rough play of the Dennis Rodman era's Pistons, and c) the poor and depressed world of Eminem. I don't know if younger foreigners have different references.
personZ 12y ago
Americans, as far as I can tell, view Detroit with what strikes me as hostility almost. You don't have to go far to find Canadians who view Detroit as a North American Mogadishu. Such an opinion has a strong correlation with racism, it's worth noting: Detroit must be the perilous worst because it is held to represent black America. As to the "never actually visited", do you claim that most, or even a remote minority of Americans have "actually ever visited Detroit"? Of course they haven't. They laugh and point and repost and share the ruin porn because, ha ha, look at Detroit. In any case, it was a pretty bizarre claim to use in response to my post given that I expressly said that I go to Detroit almost regularly. Indeed, "Canadians" in Southern Ontario almost certainly know more about Detroit than the bulk of Americans, for obvious geographical and practicality reasons. Now maybe I'm not going to the "real" Detroit in some people's opinion, in that I am in built up urban areas and affluent suburbs, but it is a part of the whole of Detroit.

Shivetya 12y ago

Dunno, all that separates today's Detroit from Robocop's Detroit are the robotic police units, well until they arm the drones. You have the yuppie Detroit and the rest. Doesn't look very different that some Mexican cities recently in the news, wealth on one side of the fence and the poor excluded. oh sure, they get subsidies and such, carefully factored to insure their incentive to take from those on other side of the fence doesn't occur. Until all that urban blight is settled Detroit isn't back. This is just a game to get the bonds people and such back in the game after bankruptcy goes through.