3 ms·

I don't think it's fair to assert a confirmation bias. The first quote: That is probably a factually true quote. He did not say, "Therefore, more people's live

by javert 12y ago

I don't think it's fair to assert a confirmation bias. The first quote: That is probably a factually true quote. He did not say, "Therefore, more people's lives are ruined by physics than drugs." The second quote is also probably factually true, and jives with my experience in graduate school. Of course, many of the foreigners are also weak, but he leaves that out.

Balgair 12y ago
Ok, I used my list of logical errors incorrectly, my bad. Still, yes, for him, maybe he does in fact know more 'failed' physicists than junkies. However, there are many many many more junkies with much much worse lives than almost all PhDs. I'm going into neurosci this fall, so I don't know yet personally. However, the attitude expressed in that sentence is so very toxic. If that's what the professor publishes, then I'd never want to hear what he gossips to the other professors. Maybe, just maybe, the professor is a jerk. And maybe, just maybe, the only people that are left near him are the ones not smart enough to avoid him in the first place. I don't remember what bias that is.
- javert 12y ago
  I'm finishing my 5th year of grad school now. My adviser constantly sets expectations so high that they literally cannot be met. I have had to skip holidays and neglect my family and I have still often had my work trivialized. My work is not appreciated, the fact that I have given up almost everything else in my life is not appreciated. Most people do not even make it to their 5th year in our group. I spent a lot of time being really bitter about all this. But I have realized that you have to do this to be a good scientist. My adviser only wants to train good scientists. So I'm not even upset about it any more. I have to look beyond my adviser, and look at the actual science I am doing, and realize that he is irrelevant, but that I still have to behave in this way (i.e. giving up much else in my life) to make progress. I don't know if you'll encounter this in neurosci. Perhaps good neurosci research can be done without this level of commitment. I'm sure it would depend on your exact specialty. But I'm telling you all this so that you don't end up being really bitter towards your adviser if you get into a situation like many aspiring scientists face. It's not his fault. I'm not exactly sure what your problem was with the quotes you posted. I guess it was that he was calling his students weak? My point is: in school, what your adviser says is fundamentally irrelevant. Don't let it affect your self-esteem. But science itself has a way of absolutely kicking your butt. And that is why professors say things like that in the first place. It takes massive virtue to be a good scientist. It also takes a particular set of life circumstances in order for it to be a rational choice. What I do would not have been a rational choice if I had considered it mandatory (for me) to have a girlfriend or start a family, for example (at this stage in life). That said, I haven't left because what I do truly is rewarding. I can't think of anything I'd rather be doing. I am a purely selfish person. I don't do science for the greater good. So my point here is: it can be worth it.
  - Balgair 12y ago
    Wow, thank you for the advice, I do appreciate it! I'm going to push back on you though. Having to skip out on your life and family to satisfy an advisor who "sets expectations so high that they literally cannot be met" is NOT ok. I have done this to myself and family before as well, and am old enough now to know that it is WAY unhealthy and detrimental to the work over the long term of months. Honestly, it sounds like you are kinda Munchhausen-syndroming here. I mean, bravo for sticking with it and having the hardihood, but... dude.... wake up. Your advisor seems to be an ass. If they ride you this hard and trivialize all the hard work it is not helping you be a scientist, it's helping them further their career. You are getting screwed here. Also, you seem to be very confused as to why you are doing this. You claim to not have a life outside of grad school and yet your life in grad school is terrible. You claim to love what you are doing but only after years of struggle and browbeating. From what little data you have shared (and thank you for doing so, I do appreciate it) you seem resigned. You advisor is not going to give you a good letter of recommendation. You indicate your science is not good enough for your advisor and do not refute this. You claim to be selfish but care about missing out on family and friends. You state your advisor is trying to make you a better scientist, but only discovered so after 5 years of their bad treatment. What is your plan? What are you going to do with your life? If this is what science is doing to you, you might want to reconsider. You seem miserable. Back to the quotes; my problem was that he is self selecting out the good students. You advisor is a person you should trust. Writing an article like this sends out big red flags to anyone maybe thinking of working with him. I'd never work with the guy because I know for a fact he is a bad investment. If he had any students at the time of the writing, he just threw them all under the bus, along with most of his co-professor's students. He tarnished the reputations of his lab, department, and school by saying those things. Mostly he tarnished his own reputation.
    - javert 12y ago
      Thanks a lot for your comments. You are insanely good at reading between the lines. I don't let it get me down that my adviser doesn't give me that much approval, because I'm not in it to get his approval. I also don't let it get me down that he doesn't think my work is that much of a contribution, because I genuinely do believe it is. I did let that stuff get me down for a long time, so I have been miserable part of the time, but I have learned an important life lesson about not letting your own self-esteem come from other people's standards. You have to set your own standards and do your own thinking and evaluation. This is true in all areas of life, but it's super important for self-esteem. I don't think my adviser is just using me to help his career. He's too established to need that. It's just not a factor. That is definitely something to look out for in academia but not all professors are that hardcore/machiavellian. Your questions may have been purely rhetorical, but in case not, my plan is to finish my doctorate and then most likely go on to become a practicing (i.e. non-academic) computer scientist. I do think all this is worth it in terms of not spending much time with my family (I mean my parents' generation, as I'm not married and have no kids) on holidays. It would have been a much larger tradeoff if I had had much social (friends/romantic) prospects, but I don't think I really would have done much better outside of grad school (my best years are still ahead of me in all that kind of stuff). And I do have some really good colleagues that basically are friends, AND I get to do real computer science full time, which is basically a dream come true.

by javert 12y ago

Balgair 12y ago

Ok, I used my list of logical errors incorrectly, my bad. Still, yes, for him, maybe he does in fact know more 'failed' physicists than junkies. However, there are many many many more junkies with much much worse lives than almost all PhDs. I'm going into neurosci this fall, so I don't know yet personally. However, the attitude expressed in that sentence is so very toxic. If that's what the professor publishes, then I'd never want to hear what he gossips to the other professors. Maybe, just maybe, the professor is a jerk. And maybe, just maybe, the only people that are left near him are the ones not smart enough to avoid him in the first place. I don't remember what bias that is.

javert 12y ago
I'm finishing my 5th year of grad school now. My adviser constantly sets expectations so high that they literally cannot be met. I have had to skip holidays and neglect my family and I have still often had my work trivialized. My work is not appreciated, the fact that I have given up almost everything else in my life is not appreciated. Most people do not even make it to their 5th year in our group. I spent a lot of time being really bitter about all this. But I have realized that you have to do this to be a good scientist. My adviser only wants to train good scientists. So I'm not even upset about it any more. I have to look beyond my adviser, and look at the actual science I am doing, and realize that he is irrelevant, but that I still have to behave in this way (i.e. giving up much else in my life) to make progress. I don't know if you'll encounter this in neurosci. Perhaps good neurosci research can be done without this level of commitment. I'm sure it would depend on your exact specialty. But I'm telling you all this so that you don't end up being really bitter towards your adviser if you get into a situation like many aspiring scientists face. It's not his fault. I'm not exactly sure what your problem was with the quotes you posted. I guess it was that he was calling his students weak? My point is: in school, what your adviser says is fundamentally irrelevant. Don't let it affect your self-esteem. But science itself has a way of absolutely kicking your butt. And that is why professors say things like that in the first place. It takes massive virtue to be a good scientist. It also takes a particular set of life circumstances in order for it to be a rational choice. What I do would not have been a rational choice if I had considered it mandatory (for me) to have a girlfriend or start a family, for example (at this stage in life). That said, I haven't left because what I do truly is rewarding. I can't think of anything I'd rather be doing. I am a purely selfish person. I don't do science for the greater good. So my point here is: it can be worth it.
- Balgair 12y ago
  Wow, thank you for the advice, I do appreciate it! I'm going to push back on you though. Having to skip out on your life and family to satisfy an advisor who "sets expectations so high that they literally cannot be met" is NOT ok. I have done this to myself and family before as well, and am old enough now to know that it is WAY unhealthy and detrimental to the work over the long term of months. Honestly, it sounds like you are kinda Munchhausen-syndroming here. I mean, bravo for sticking with it and having the hardihood, but... dude.... wake up. Your advisor seems to be an ass. If they ride you this hard and trivialize all the hard work it is not helping you be a scientist, it's helping them further their career. You are getting screwed here. Also, you seem to be very confused as to why you are doing this. You claim to not have a life outside of grad school and yet your life in grad school is terrible. You claim to love what you are doing but only after years of struggle and browbeating. From what little data you have shared (and thank you for doing so, I do appreciate it) you seem resigned. You advisor is not going to give you a good letter of recommendation. You indicate your science is not good enough for your advisor and do not refute this. You claim to be selfish but care about missing out on family and friends. You state your advisor is trying to make you a better scientist, but only discovered so after 5 years of their bad treatment. What is your plan? What are you going to do with your life? If this is what science is doing to you, you might want to reconsider. You seem miserable. Back to the quotes; my problem was that he is self selecting out the good students. You advisor is a person you should trust. Writing an article like this sends out big red flags to anyone maybe thinking of working with him. I'd never work with the guy because I know for a fact he is a bad investment. If he had any students at the time of the writing, he just threw them all under the bus, along with most of his co-professor's students. He tarnished the reputations of his lab, department, and school by saying those things. Mostly he tarnished his own reputation.
  - javert 12y ago
    Thanks a lot for your comments. You are insanely good at reading between the lines. I don't let it get me down that my adviser doesn't give me that much approval, because I'm not in it to get his approval. I also don't let it get me down that he doesn't think my work is that much of a contribution, because I genuinely do believe it is. I did let that stuff get me down for a long time, so I have been miserable part of the time, but I have learned an important life lesson about not letting your own self-esteem come from other people's standards. You have to set your own standards and do your own thinking and evaluation. This is true in all areas of life, but it's super important for self-esteem. I don't think my adviser is just using me to help his career. He's too established to need that. It's just not a factor. That is definitely something to look out for in academia but not all professors are that hardcore/machiavellian. Your questions may have been purely rhetorical, but in case not, my plan is to finish my doctorate and then most likely go on to become a practicing (i.e. non-academic) computer scientist. I do think all this is worth it in terms of not spending much time with my family (I mean my parents' generation, as I'm not married and have no kids) on holidays. It would have been a much larger tradeoff if I had had much social (friends/romantic) prospects, but I don't think I really would have done much better outside of grad school (my best years are still ahead of me in all that kind of stuff). And I do have some really good colleagues that basically are friends, AND I get to do real computer science full time, which is basically a dream come true.