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EDIT: I'm sorry three of us replied at the same time. I didn't mean to gang up on you. > All "property" is imaginary. When it comes to the current legal notio

EDIT: I'm sorry three of us replied at the same time. I didn't mean to gang up on you. > All "property" is imaginary. When it comes to the current legal notion of property, then yes, assigning something as someone's "property" is imaginary. The problem is "real" property cannot be duplicated without expending resources, whereas IP can be duplicated for free. For example: If I make a car, you can't just "copy" it. Taking the car is stealing, and I think that is immoral because you have deprived the original owner of their work. If I make a short story, then "copying" the story means using your own pen and paper (or your own hard drive to place a sequence of bits) to copy. I don't think this should be illegal. That is, I don't think that having a particular sequence of bits on your hard drive should legally allow men with guns to enter your home, label you a criminal, fine you, and/or send you to jail. In that sense, not all property is "imaginary." We can make a distinction between tangible property, that exists as mass, and intellectual property, which is a set of ideas/words/code/etc. Tangible property is rivalrous; we can't both use it at the same time. Intellectual property can be used by many individuals at once, so calling it someone's "property" and enforcing that claim with force creates artificial scarcity. I do feel bad that people who expect and rely on IP laws could feel cheated if IP laws were to disappear tomorrow. But to pretend IP law is some sort of natural thing is a bit naive. People have been creating ideas since we evolved a brain. People will continue to create without IP law. To make money off of your creations just requires a different business model.

archgrove 12y ago
There are no natural laws. Just because you (or your forefathers) were first on a piece of land, what natural right grants you it? Surely it's far more natural that, if I can overpower you and take it, it's mine? That's actually how nature typically works. The notion that it's "immoral" is a purely human construction. Why is that immoral, but my spending 5 years writing a book, only to see nothing in return because everyone hands it around for free is moral? I'm not saying people will stop having ideas, or creating music, etc. What I am saying is that people without private means or patrons will have to stop performing creative acts that require a significant time investment. If I've got a wonderful idea for a book/film/game/whatever, but know it will take 5 years to make, how do I make it when I need to work 8-6 to pay for food/shelter etc? Eliminating IP is to construct a return to patronage; the very wealthy deciding what creative output it worthwhile. IP is actually a hugely egalitarian concept; the world can decide what has value, and reward the creator post-hoc, because the creator is ensured a return.
- PythonicAlpha 12y ago
  >because the creator is ensured a return. No it is not. There can be ideas and "copyright" without having IP. But IP does also mean that the "property" can be owned by people that did not create it. This notion is fundamentally wrong and de-valuates any creative work. In patents you can already see it (most inventors are getting just a little fixed money -- the most of the value goes to the companies) -- but also in copyrighted work. The most of the value goes not to the performers of the art (eg music) but to the distributors.
  - archgrove 12y ago
    Why is it "fundamentally wrong"? I created the work, I'm free to do with it as I please. I can give it away for free. I can charge $10 a copy. I can come to an arrangement that someone else has the right to set the price, in return for something else I want. That many musicians choose to sell their creations to distributors is entirely their choice. It obviously didn't "devalue" it to them at the point of sale, else they wouldn't have sold it. That many patents are owned by companies is because they were created by employees whose creative output was owned by the company in exchange for a salary. If creative output has a value, then people should be free to exchange their creations for anything they like. To create restrictions that prevent people from writing a book then making an arrangement with a publisher, is just to prevent people from actually being able to do anything with their creations.
    - PythonicAlpha 12y ago
      >I created the work, I'm free to do with it as I please. Under the current law: NO! That is just a dream from the people that are pro-IP -- they know, that is a dream, but they want you to dream it. If you are working for a company and have an idea, the company gets the patent and you get (if you are lucky) a fixed amount (~$500 is a typical amount in my country) and the patent belongs to the company -- you don't even have the right to use the stuff for yourself. IP means, in its conclusion, that the creators are disowned and the "owners" own your ideas. You created it, you are busted!
tzs 12y ago
The artificial scarcity is the point. The fundamental problem is that, as you noted, IP is free to copy. It is not free to create, and some arrangement must be made to pay for creation. The approach of current IP law is to artificially imbue IP with attributes that make copies rivalrous and excludable, so that the creator can sell them on the free market. The free market will decide which IP should be produced and which should not, and the creation costs are paid by the people that use the IP. Advantages of this approach: costs paid by users--if I don't read your novel, I don't pay for your novel; free market controls production decisions. Disadvantage of this approach: price to users is higher than the "economically correct" price. There are ways to deal with IP that do not involve artificial scarcity. One alternative approach, which was popular a long time ago, is the private patronage approach. Artists find a rich person to pay them to create. I'm not sure there are enough rich patrons to make this work at the scale consumers like to consume art today, and I don't think we'd have the artistic diversity we now have under a private patronage system. Another approach is the begging approach. Probably the best alternative to the current approach is the public goods approach. Treat artistic works like we treat public parks. Anyone could freely copy and share, and the creation would be funded by the government out of tax revenue. The main problems with this approach are (1) determining the budget for art funding, and (2) deciding which artists get funded and by how much. The budget can be dealt with by tying it to a tax on something that correlates well with public consumption of art. Probably the best way to deal with deciding which artists get funded is to track consumer use, similar to the way we now do in order to determine royalties, and base funding on that.

archgrove 12y ago

There are no natural laws. Just because you (or your forefathers) were first on a piece of land, what natural right grants you it? Surely it's far more natural that, if I can overpower you and take it, it's mine? That's actually how nature typically works. The notion that it's "immoral" is a purely human construction. Why is that immoral, but my spending 5 years writing a book, only to see nothing in return because everyone hands it around for free is moral? I'm not saying people will stop having ideas, or creating music, etc. What I am saying is that people without private means or patrons will have to stop performing creative acts that require a significant time investment. If I've got a wonderful idea for a book/film/game/whatever, but know it will take 5 years to make, how do I make it when I need to work 8-6 to pay for food/shelter etc? Eliminating IP is to construct a return to patronage; the very wealthy deciding what creative output it worthwhile. IP is actually a hugely egalitarian concept; the world can decide what has value, and reward the creator post-hoc, because the creator is ensured a return.

PythonicAlpha 12y ago
>because the creator is ensured a return. No it is not. There can be ideas and "copyright" without having IP. But IP does also mean that the "property" can be owned by people that did not create it. This notion is fundamentally wrong and de-valuates any creative work. In patents you can already see it (most inventors are getting just a little fixed money -- the most of the value goes to the companies) -- but also in copyrighted work. The most of the value goes not to the performers of the art (eg music) but to the distributors.
- archgrove 12y ago
  Why is it "fundamentally wrong"? I created the work, I'm free to do with it as I please. I can give it away for free. I can charge $10 a copy. I can come to an arrangement that someone else has the right to set the price, in return for something else I want. That many musicians choose to sell their creations to distributors is entirely their choice. It obviously didn't "devalue" it to them at the point of sale, else they wouldn't have sold it. That many patents are owned by companies is because they were created by employees whose creative output was owned by the company in exchange for a salary. If creative output has a value, then people should be free to exchange their creations for anything they like. To create restrictions that prevent people from writing a book then making an arrangement with a publisher, is just to prevent people from actually being able to do anything with their creations.
  - PythonicAlpha 12y ago
    >I created the work, I'm free to do with it as I please. Under the current law: NO! That is just a dream from the people that are pro-IP -- they know, that is a dream, but they want you to dream it. If you are working for a company and have an idea, the company gets the patent and you get (if you are lucky) a fixed amount (~$500 is a typical amount in my country) and the patent belongs to the company -- you don't even have the right to use the stuff for yourself. IP means, in its conclusion, that the creators are disowned and the "owners" own your ideas. You created it, you are busted!

tzs 12y ago

The artificial scarcity is the point. The fundamental problem is that, as you noted, IP is free to copy. It is not free to create, and some arrangement must be made to pay for creation. The approach of current IP law is to artificially imbue IP with attributes that make copies rivalrous and excludable, so that the creator can sell them on the free market. The free market will decide which IP should be produced and which should not, and the creation costs are paid by the people that use the IP. Advantages of this approach: costs paid by users--if I don't read your novel, I don't pay for your novel; free market controls production decisions. Disadvantage of this approach: price to users is higher than the "economically correct" price. There are ways to deal with IP that do not involve artificial scarcity. One alternative approach, which was popular a long time ago, is the private patronage approach. Artists find a rich person to pay them to create. I'm not sure there are enough rich patrons to make this work at the scale consumers like to consume art today, and I don't think we'd have the artistic diversity we now have under a private patronage system. Another approach is the begging approach. Probably the best alternative to the current approach is the public goods approach. Treat artistic works like we treat public parks. Anyone could freely copy and share, and the creation would be funded by the government out of tax revenue. The main problems with this approach are (1) determining the budget for art funding, and (2) deciding which artists get funded and by how much. The budget can be dealt with by tying it to a tax on something that correlates well with public consumption of art. Probably the best way to deal with deciding which artists get funded is to track consumer use, similar to the way we now do in order to determine royalties, and base funding on that.