3 ms·

> I don't wish to sound rude, but this sounds like a lump made by marketing types :-). Is lunch_app a program? If so, Anon has to learn at least the basics of p

by porker 12y ago

> I don't wish to sound rude, but this sounds like a lump made by marketing types :-). Is lunch_app a program? If so, Anon has to learn at least the basics of programming, much like someone who builds a desk has to learn at least the basics of carpentry or someone who wants to learn to play a musical instrument has to learn at least the basics of music. Isn't this the destiny of most software☨, and another step along the craft to utility curve [0]? Software of this type is needed to do a chore, and honestly if the tools are in place, it could be re-created in an afternoon rather than extended when the time comes. I would use the analogy of printing; we used to need a typesetter and go to a printer; now we select a font, type and hit 'print' and - if the damned printer on our desk cooperates - we get our work back. Websites are reaching this level of utility; there's no reason simple web apps or desktop software won't too. [0] This graph http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-lrxB3ntRzKQ/U05ClSIXwGI/AAAAAAAAEyI/a9Qd-cl456w/s1600/Screen+Shot+2014-04-16+at+09.40.43.png http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-lrxB3ntRzKQ/U05ClSIXwGI/AAAAAAAAEy... taken from http://blog.gardeviance.org/2012/06/pioneers-settlers-and-town-planners.html http://blog.gardeviance.org/2012/06/pioneers-settlers-and-to.... The graph matches what I see in the web industry; his blog is a fun read ☨ Because thinking of all software ever written, including scripting for automation, the really complicated and large and needing well-engineered software is far less common than we sometimes think, and not what someone like Anon is considering building with these tools.

weland 12y ago
> Software of this type is needed to do a chore, and honestly if the tools are in place, it could be re-created in an afternoon rather than extended when the time comes. I agree that it's supposed to do a chore, so it should be as easy to churn it out as possible. However, if we were to follow your printer analogy, the proper way to do that with a printer would be to just build a machine that makes it very easy to create a custom printer that types out exactly what you want it to type out! What we have instead is a very general typesetter that can be convinced to print a particular picture (by feeding it an automatically-generated program in e.g. PS!). The application in question is pretty much a simple CRUD that generates a report in the end so that whoever is ordering knows what to order and from where. IMHO, just like printing doesn't require the user to know PS, this should not involve programming. It's not that programming should be easy, it's just that the CRUD model is so easily understood and so orthogonal that building one should not require anything more than a wizard asking you about the data it should collect.
mercer 12y ago
Or, to use the desk analogy: if you just want a desk, you generally don't learn the basics of carpentry; you just go to IKEA (or a furniture store). (Which is a great thing for carpenters and furniture store owners. We're those people in the analogy, so why get uppity about people needing our services eventually?)
- weland 12y ago
  Actually, the very basics of carpentry are the things you use to put together the IKEA desks! No, seriously. IKEA didn't have a store open around here when I was a kid; some of the less pretentious furniture in my parents' house was made by my father, and since I was a kid, he had no choice but to need my assistance. Putting wooden things together with screws based on drawings was literally the first thing I learned about carpentry, just before sawing and all that. The fact that it's so easy should be no surprise. Patching together some stuff in BASIC is exactly as easy. Yeah, it's fucking disgusting that today's "personal computers" are such impersonally cluttered, patchy, uselessly complex designs that even experienced programmers can barely wield them.

by porker 12y ago

weland 12y ago

> Software of this type is needed to do a chore, and honestly if the tools are in place, it could be re-created in an afternoon rather than extended when the time comes. I agree that it's supposed to do a chore, so it should be as easy to churn it out as possible. However, if we were to follow your printer analogy, the proper way to do that with a printer would be to just build a machine that makes it very easy to create a custom printer that types out exactly what you want it to type out! What we have instead is a very general typesetter that can be convinced to print a particular picture (by feeding it an automatically-generated program in e.g. PS!). The application in question is pretty much a simple CRUD that generates a report in the end so that whoever is ordering knows what to order and from where. IMHO, just like printing doesn't require the user to know PS, this should not involve programming. It's not that programming should be easy, it's just that the CRUD model is so easily understood and so orthogonal that building one should not require anything more than a wizard asking you about the data it should collect.

mercer 12y ago

Or, to use the desk analogy: if you just want a desk, you generally don't learn the basics of carpentry; you just go to IKEA (or a furniture store). (Which is a great thing for carpenters and furniture store owners. We're those people in the analogy, so why get uppity about people needing our services eventually?)

weland 12y ago
Actually, the very basics of carpentry are the things you use to put together the IKEA desks! No, seriously. IKEA didn't have a store open around here when I was a kid; some of the less pretentious furniture in my parents' house was made by my father, and since I was a kid, he had no choice but to need my assistance. Putting wooden things together with screws based on drawings was literally the first thing I learned about carpentry, just before sawing and all that. The fact that it's so easy should be no surprise. Patching together some stuff in BASIC is exactly as easy. Yeah, it's fucking disgusting that today's "personal computers" are such impersonally cluttered, patchy, uselessly complex designs that even experienced programmers can barely wield them.