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Also, "culture" (in the modern, anthropological sense of the world) is mostly ugly and bad, because people are mostly ugly and bad. Foot-binding was culture. R

Also, "culture" (in the modern, anthropological sense of the world) is mostly ugly and bad, because people are mostly ugly and bad. Foot-binding was culture. Religious and racial bigotry are culture. Almost every social injustice that ever occurred came out of some cultural prejudice. People on Hacker News are quick to bash religion, but it's pre-baked thinking in general (which is much of what culture is) that is the cause of so much suffering. When "culture fit" is used to justify not hiring a capable, 43-year-old woman out of the fear that she'll justify the money-making machine that exists when 25-year-old, male, clueless commodity programmers are stapled together into an underpaid, overworked team, the word culture isn't being misused. That's exactly what culture is. Most companies that have a strong cultural identity have a negative one. It's also not necessary that a company have one. Banks don't trumpet "our culture" but (excluding analyst programs, which are hellish) are decent places to work in spite of the weak cultural identity. A corporate "culture" eventually realizes that it must defend itself against perceived enemies. And it inevitably ends up being the worst kinds of people-- passive-aggressive, malevolent sorts-- who acquire the position to decide who those enemies are going to be. Culture also tends toward arrogance, injustice, and hubris as it develops exceptionalism, which is what it will fight hardest to defend. I still have people from Google, three years after I left, going out of their way to fuck up my life because they perceive things I've said as being threats to their culture's exceptionalism. (Never mind that I've been gone for 3 years and have absolutely no power over anything that happens at Google.) A commercial enterprise like a business will never have a balanced, full-fledged culture. Culture is immersive, not something people participate in for 8 hours per day in order to make money. I would say that, as much as possible, you don't want a strong culture (or, more dangerously, a strong cultural identity) at your place of work. You want people to get in, do good work, be paid well, and be happy. But once you have people start talking about "culture fit" as if it were a real thing, you've hired too many passive-aggressive assholes, and you need to cool it with the "culture" nonsense.

jqm 12y ago
That post was extremely well put and sums up my thoughts exactly. Culture is quite often discriminatory, hostile, and all too often filled with counterproductive sentiment. And, it is fluid. If we look at the larger world and see how many of the problems are caused by "culture" it's amazing to think we should have adopted this word into our workplaces. Never mind that it doesn't actually fit there. Most employees embracing principals of hard work, team play and the like isn't really "culture". Maybe "values" or "expectations" or "generally accepted behavior" are better words. Culture is larger than that. Or else something green and slimy growing in a petri dish.
andrewljohnson 12y ago
I still have people from Google, three years after I left, going out of their way to fuck up my life because they perceive things I've said as being threats to their culture's exceptionalism. You bash Google at every opportunity, every since you left, AFAIK. You reap what you sow. The rest of your post was good, but then you had to go off on Google again. Get over it.
- woof 12y ago
  So if he stops his criticism of Google, he will be left alone? Just like critics of Scientology?
- michaelochurch 12y ago
  I don't have a problem with Google. I am over it. There's good and bad to Google and I was unlucky, but it's actually a pretty good company. I don't have a problem with it. To me, three years ago is ancient history. I have a problem with individual passive-aggressive assholes-- who have never met me but worked at the same company 3 years ago, and who are taking old mailing list posts way out of context-- trying to fuck up my career long after I worked there. Google is not responsible for the actions of these people; they are adults. Many of them are no longer Googlers. I'm not mad at Google. I'm mad at them. The past is the past; continuing to fuck up the present and threatening the future is unforgivable.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
moron4hire 12y ago
There are also positive aspects of culture. Art is an expression of culture. The art of one culture is difficult to understand for people of another, because it's a form of language, and the art communicates an idea through that language. The key is that culture is every aspect of the human condition. It is the fabric of who we are. You have to take the good with the bad. Hopefully, people aspire to be better. To extend on what you've said here, I think we can only be a member of one culture at a time. I think we have agency over that membership, but you just can't be in two places at the same time. So when our employers talk about the company's "culture", what I hear is "make your existence, make the fabric of your being, about work." And that's absolutely no place that I ever want to be, regardless of where I could possibly be working.
- michaelochurch 12y ago
  There are also positive aspects of culture. Art is an expression of culture. The art of one culture is difficult to understand for people of another, because it's a form of language, and the art communicates an idea through that language. So when our employers talk about the company's "culture", what I hear is "make your existence, make the fabric of your being, about work." Both excellent points. You're right that there is good in culture as well. My objection isn't so much with culture in general as with forced culture. Culture is emergent, except when under totalitarian or clerical control.
  - moron4hire 12y ago
    agreed completely.
  - shanacarp 12y ago
    It isn't so clear to me that Culture is an emergent as much as a sort of foucaultian bidirectional control. If everyone quits because of culture as a company - I wouldn't say a CEO is in control of said culture.
- greenyoda 12y ago
  "I think we can only be a member of one culture at a time." Children of immigrants can live within their country's culture while having strong ties to their parents' culture. For example, when they attend public schools, they're immersed in the local culture, but when they go home, they live with the behavioral norms, language, foods, etc. of their parents' home country.
bquinlan 12y ago
How are people at Google trying to screw up your life? Are you talking about the (seemingly bi-directional) hostility on Hacker News that seemed common a year ago or something more? You mentioned that you sued and won some cases for tortious interference (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7645843 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7645843) - was that against Google employees? Can you share some details?
- michaelochurch 12y ago
  Open, out-in-the-air, criticism is something I can deal with. It's the passive-aggressive and anonymous stuff that pisses me off. I've had a few ex-Googlers call hits in to later employers, and that's a main reason why I don't put where I work on LinkedIn. The reason I bashed Google in the past (I've calmed down a bit) was that their HR refused to investigate, the first time a hit was called. That was wrong on their part. I can see why they didn't do it (I was an ex-employee, and they would have to fire someone who might be a high performer, so it was better not to know) but I'm still pretty disgusted. Many Googlers I like-- there are a lot of good people at that company-- but there's a certain type of arrogant, entitled, mediocre schmuck that, while they're only 5 to 10 percent of Google, they have a hive-mind dynamic... and those people still really hate me.
Ixiaus 12y ago
While I agree with you on this pessimistic analysis I also think you're neglecting to include a consideration of cultural context, relativism, and sunnier culture. I think it is a parochial statement that, anthropologically, most culture is ugly or bad.
yuhong 12y ago
OT but can you write the essay mentioned in the end of http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2014/04/06/the-right-and-wrong-way-to-lie-in-business-part-2/ http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2014/04/06/the-right-and...
benjaminpv 12y ago
>they perceive things I've said as being threats to their culture's exceptionalism. I find this comment very interesting in light of the recent decision by the Chrome team to excise the ability to have the browser check for certificate revocation[1]. The whole situation left me with the feeling that Google has a really low opinion of anyone that isn't Google. "The certificate revocation process has some deficiencies? We'll roll our own. Oh, people still want to do revocation checks? They're confused, remove the ability to do so." [1]: https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=361820 https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=361820

jqm 12y ago

That post was extremely well put and sums up my thoughts exactly. Culture is quite often discriminatory, hostile, and all too often filled with counterproductive sentiment. And, it is fluid. If we look at the larger world and see how many of the problems are caused by "culture" it's amazing to think we should have adopted this word into our workplaces. Never mind that it doesn't actually fit there. Most employees embracing principals of hard work, team play and the like isn't really "culture". Maybe "values" or "expectations" or "generally accepted behavior" are better words. Culture is larger than that. Or else something green and slimy growing in a petri dish.

andrewljohnson 12y ago

I still have people from Google, three years after I left, going out of their way to fuck up my life because they perceive things I've said as being threats to their culture's exceptionalism. You bash Google at every opportunity, every since you left, AFAIK. You reap what you sow. The rest of your post was good, but then you had to go off on Google again. Get over it.

woof 12y ago
So if he stops his criticism of Google, he will be left alone? Just like critics of Scientology?
michaelochurch 12y ago
I don't have a problem with Google. I am over it. There's good and bad to Google and I was unlucky, but it's actually a pretty good company. I don't have a problem with it. To me, three years ago is ancient history. I have a problem with individual passive-aggressive assholes-- who have never met me but worked at the same company 3 years ago, and who are taking old mailing list posts way out of context-- trying to fuck up my career long after I worked there. Google is not responsible for the actions of these people; they are adults. Many of them are no longer Googlers. I'm not mad at Google. I'm mad at them. The past is the past; continuing to fuck up the present and threatening the future is unforgivable.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

moron4hire 12y ago

There are also positive aspects of culture. Art is an expression of culture. The art of one culture is difficult to understand for people of another, because it's a form of language, and the art communicates an idea through that language. The key is that culture is every aspect of the human condition. It is the fabric of who we are. You have to take the good with the bad. Hopefully, people aspire to be better. To extend on what you've said here, I think we can only be a member of one culture at a time. I think we have agency over that membership, but you just can't be in two places at the same time. So when our employers talk about the company's "culture", what I hear is "make your existence, make the fabric of your being, about work." And that's absolutely no place that I ever want to be, regardless of where I could possibly be working.

michaelochurch 12y ago
There are also positive aspects of culture. Art is an expression of culture. The art of one culture is difficult to understand for people of another, because it's a form of language, and the art communicates an idea through that language. So when our employers talk about the company's "culture", what I hear is "make your existence, make the fabric of your being, about work." Both excellent points. You're right that there is good in culture as well. My objection isn't so much with culture in general as with forced culture. Culture is emergent, except when under totalitarian or clerical control.
- moron4hire 12y ago
  agreed completely.
- shanacarp 12y ago
  It isn't so clear to me that Culture is an emergent as much as a sort of foucaultian bidirectional control. If everyone quits because of culture as a company - I wouldn't say a CEO is in control of said culture.
greenyoda 12y ago
"I think we can only be a member of one culture at a time." Children of immigrants can live within their country's culture while having strong ties to their parents' culture. For example, when they attend public schools, they're immersed in the local culture, but when they go home, they live with the behavioral norms, language, foods, etc. of their parents' home country.

bquinlan 12y ago

How are people at Google trying to screw up your life? Are you talking about the (seemingly bi-directional) hostility on Hacker News that seemed common a year ago or something more? You mentioned that you sued and won some cases for tortious interference (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7645843 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7645843) - was that against Google employees? Can you share some details?

michaelochurch 12y ago
Open, out-in-the-air, criticism is something I can deal with. It's the passive-aggressive and anonymous stuff that pisses me off. I've had a few ex-Googlers call hits in to later employers, and that's a main reason why I don't put where I work on LinkedIn. The reason I bashed Google in the past (I've calmed down a bit) was that their HR refused to investigate, the first time a hit was called. That was wrong on their part. I can see why they didn't do it (I was an ex-employee, and they would have to fire someone who might be a high performer, so it was better not to know) but I'm still pretty disgusted. Many Googlers I like-- there are a lot of good people at that company-- but there's a certain type of arrogant, entitled, mediocre schmuck that, while they're only 5 to 10 percent of Google, they have a hive-mind dynamic... and those people still really hate me.

Ixiaus 12y ago

While I agree with you on this pessimistic analysis I also think you're neglecting to include a consideration of cultural context, relativism, and sunnier culture. I think it is a parochial statement that, anthropologically, most culture is ugly or bad.

yuhong 12y ago

OT but can you write the essay mentioned in the end of http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2014/04/06/the-right-and-wrong-way-to-lie-in-business-part-2/ http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2014/04/06/the-right-and...

benjaminpv 12y ago

>they perceive things I've said as being threats to their culture's exceptionalism. I find this comment very interesting in light of the recent decision by the Chrome team to excise the ability to have the browser check for certificate revocation[1]. The whole situation left me with the feeling that Google has a really low opinion of anyone that isn't Google. "The certificate revocation process has some deficiencies? We'll roll our own. Oh, people still want to do revocation checks? They're confused, remove the ability to do so." [1]: https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=361820 https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=361820