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There seems to be a pattern here: Swiss referendums more often than not follow the opinion of the government. In cases where they don't, they seem to be quite p

There seems to be a pattern here: Swiss referendums more often than not follow the opinion of the government. In cases where they don't, they seem to be quite problematical. In the vote for "restrictions on EU immigrations" the swiss want to throw out immigrants. But not those they know personally. Or those on whom their economy depends. So basically the government has the choice between not implementing the proposal as intended, or to harm the economy badly. As far as I know, they haven't solved this Dilemma quite yet. Maybe this "element of direct democracy" has less impact on the actual "democraticness" than some believe it has. At the very least it poses a serious risk for long term investors or entrepreneurs. Any harebrained idea that comes up in this process has a non-zero chance of being implemented just by the power of low participation or ambiguous opinions. At best, governments already take the "pulse" of public and expert opinion when setting policy, making referendums futile or redundant.

algorias 12y ago
> At best, governments already take the "pulse" of public and expert opinion when setting policy, making referendums futile or redundant. So you're saying a referendum is futile because it forces the government to (preemptively) do what the people want? That's exactly it's purpose!
- bayesianhorse 12y ago
  I have not said that, and you deliberately misunderstood me to make a point against practical democracy. In any country with a practical, working, real-world democracy you can see the government mostly following opinion polls. Finding out "what the people want" is extremely hard, at least if you aren't a populist politician or their adherents. The task doesn't get easier if you pose simple yes and no questions. I think it is dangerous that people in western democracies increasingly equate referendums and votes with democracy, leaving out the conditions of the vote, the environment, the institutions and the state of the human rights.
mweibel 12y ago
> Swiss referendums more often than not follow the opinion of the government. This is an initiative, a referendum is something different. > In cases where they don't, they seem to be quite problematical. Not always, just in the recent years there have been some problematic votes which were accepted due to (IMO) fear generated by certain parties. There have been, however, also problematic initiatives/referendums where the people followed the governments opinion. > At the very least it poses a serious risk for long term investors or entrepreneurs. Any harebrained idea that comes up in this process has a non-zero chance of being implemented just by the power of low participation or ambiguous opinions. IMO you're a bit oversimplifying here. There are various hurdles to take when you want to vote on a certain thing. Whether things are accepted or declined depends on various things and can change because of some little thing in a week. The serious risk blabla is always a thing which various parties bring up in various votes. It never has had a bit impact as of now. In any other country laws are usually made by lobbyists. We have this problem here as well, but at least the public opinion is a bit harder to change in votes..
- bayesianhorse 12y ago
  > In any other country laws are usually made by lobbyists. Isn't that a much bigger oversimplification, than just saying that entrepreneurs in Switzerland have seen serious risks in quite a few of these votes? Isn't it true that they fear for more of these bad ideas? Even if these ideas only have a slim chance of coming throuhg?

algorias 12y ago

> At best, governments already take the "pulse" of public and expert opinion when setting policy, making referendums futile or redundant. So you're saying a referendum is futile because it forces the government to (preemptively) do what the people want? That's exactly it's purpose!

bayesianhorse 12y ago
I have not said that, and you deliberately misunderstood me to make a point against practical democracy. In any country with a practical, working, real-world democracy you can see the government mostly following opinion polls. Finding out "what the people want" is extremely hard, at least if you aren't a populist politician or their adherents. The task doesn't get easier if you pose simple yes and no questions. I think it is dangerous that people in western democracies increasingly equate referendums and votes with democracy, leaving out the conditions of the vote, the environment, the institutions and the state of the human rights.

mweibel 12y ago

> Swiss referendums more often than not follow the opinion of the government. This is an initiative, a referendum is something different. > In cases where they don't, they seem to be quite problematical. Not always, just in the recent years there have been some problematic votes which were accepted due to (IMO) fear generated by certain parties. There have been, however, also problematic initiatives/referendums where the people followed the governments opinion. > At the very least it poses a serious risk for long term investors or entrepreneurs. Any harebrained idea that comes up in this process has a non-zero chance of being implemented just by the power of low participation or ambiguous opinions. IMO you're a bit oversimplifying here. There are various hurdles to take when you want to vote on a certain thing. Whether things are accepted or declined depends on various things and can change because of some little thing in a week. The serious risk blabla is always a thing which various parties bring up in various votes. It never has had a bit impact as of now. In any other country laws are usually made by lobbyists. We have this problem here as well, but at least the public opinion is a bit harder to change in votes..

bayesianhorse 12y ago
> In any other country laws are usually made by lobbyists. Isn't that a much bigger oversimplification, than just saying that entrepreneurs in Switzerland have seen serious risks in quite a few of these votes? Isn't it true that they fear for more of these bad ideas? Even if these ideas only have a slim chance of coming throuhg?