5 ms·

As a male who manages both men and women, I think the author is guilty of selective perception and unfounded bias. I have had women on my team cry in meetings,

As a male who manages both men and women, I think the author is guilty of selective perception and unfounded bias. I have had women on my team cry in meetings, but I've had men on my team explode in anger. Neither is appropriate. Women on my team often want to "gossip," but I've learned to recognize it for what it is: a (misguided) attempt to build rapport with me. I'm learning to redirect the conversation to be more positive. The men on my team are more likely to be jockeying for position, claiming credit for things they had small roles in, and generally exaggerating the truth. I'm learning to ask follow-up questions to get them to think twice before making any claims. Males on my team are just as hard or harder to retain when compared to the women. I believe they're more likely to leave when they're passed over for a promotion or raise. Females at my company are perhaps more likely to leave because they aren't feeling close relationships. Keep in mind that the reason someone gives you for leaving is not always the real reason. The author doesn't seem particularly sensitive, so I wouldn't be surprised if she's getting "reasons" for quitting that are actually just evasions of hard topics. These are all just my observations and experiences, but I'm sure there are plenty of studies showing the pros and cons of hiring men and women. Whether biological or cultural, I'm positive there are both pros and cons to hiring either gender. Regardless, you should see my point: it's easy to get a little selective perception when you notice all the bad things about one gender. The fact that the author claims to be a woman and a feminist doesn't excuse a thing. That just means she's a woman and a feminist who stereotypes and wants to discriminate against women.

jasallen 12y ago
ignostic, I agree with you completely. One of the key differences I think, is that you think as a professional manager of people. The author thinks like a "do-er", a contributor, and is looking for people who work like her. She may be an unusual woman that tends more toward the male pattern of behavior, but that is just happenstance. One thing you both agree on, is that (whether she hates it or not) there are common differences between men and women that extend beyond appearance. Where I differ with her: Whether chromosomes or upbringing or micro-biota I don't care, those differences exist, they are useful diversification and should be accepted, even though they each need to be managed in their own way.
- daveslash 12y ago
  I agree with you jasallen - I also believe that there are common differences between the genders, albeit for a wide variety of reasons and with a lot of variation between individuals. I believe it's healthier to acknowledge that these differences are real than pretend that these differences don't exist. Unfortunately, this can also make things more difficult and complicated.
conductr 12y ago
I agree with your points and approach to manage the genders differently. However, I also recognize the author is simply frustrated by her realization that these stereotypes are based in reality. She's basically sympathizing with the people who she disagree with as a feminist. She recognizes it wrong, but doesn't have the time to fix it. The easy solution, for her, is to hire a man. When I shop for clothes I often look for a female to help me. In my experience I've had better results getting stuff I like with better advise from women. I know a man could sometimes be better, but I actively try to avoid men. It's just a simple filter I use to get to my ultimate goal quickly with a (perceived) higher level of success. I think this author is doing the same.
- stcredzero 12y ago
  attempt to build report with me better advise from women Off-topic, but doesn't it seem like iOS typing "correction" has knocked about 4 years off of the grade level of online writing?
  - steffan 12y ago
    You're attributing this trend to iOS autocorrect? Such an optimist.
    - stcredzero 12y ago
      Look elsewhere in this thread: Not only am I an optimist, I happened to be right. (It's the plural of anecdotes that's data, of course.)
      - grkvlt 12y ago
        The anecdote/data statement is usually rendered "The plural of anecdote is not data" so your point is not strictly true. Obviously with enough consistent anecdotes, they can be considered as data, but n is going to have to be convincingly large... ;)
        12y ago
jjtheblunt 12y ago
typo: report -> rapport
- ignostic 12y ago
  Yep, edited.
  - ignostic 12y ago
    Now that the thread has been flagged by HN's flamewar detection, I'd like to point out that three people correcting a single misspelled word is about as low as online discussion can get. HN will be better if you can get over nitpicking and try to add something to the conversation.
    - grkvlt 12y ago
      With the ability to send personal messages, this could be mitigated, but it's no fun to point out how much smarter you are to a single person, rather than the entire internet, when correcting someone's speling or grammar.
rbrcurtis 12y ago
Its worth noting that the way that women interact with other women is different than how they interact with men or how men interact with women. IE, Clarissa's experience as a female manager is going to be severely different than yours.
mamoswined 12y ago
"I have become profoundly tired of being a therapist and a babysitter" Then don't be one. I'm a female manager and as soon as that shit starts I shut it down. People only get away with that crap because people tolerate it and I notice they often tolerate it more with women. I don't. Someone who drains time with gossip or whining gets fired. Doesn't matter if they are a man or a woman. Also notice she talks about a receptionist, not an engineer. I admit I have struggled finding admin staff like receptionists that aren't drama queens. If you hired men for those kind of positions they'd be the same– these are lower status jobs and attract people who can't do well in high-paid higher status jobs. Since I work with some IT construction I also work with lower-status men and they are also very hard to manage. They often quit to mooch off of others or are late to work because of fights with their girlfriends or whatever.
- throwaway516 12y ago
  Throwaway for obvious reasons. Several years ago I managed a team of three male engineers and one female engineer (who was younger by the men by around 8-10 years) working on a typical software project complete with tight deadlines and the usual last minute rush. Two days before launch while trying to diagnose a particularly obscure bug the team digressed from trying to fix the bug to griping about which framework was used and why it was a bad decision and how unrealistic the expectations from the client were, etc. As a developer I can sympathize with this frustration so I let it go on for about 15-20 minutes and then I interrupted the group by saying something like "We can act like babies and whine and bitch about the things that are beyond our control or we can accept those facts, put our heads down and push forward like fucking adults". The language was rough, but I like everyone else had worked 60+ hours that week. The team begrudgingly agreed and after a coffee run went back to work. The project launched on time the next day (Friday) and everything seemed fine. We all went out for lunch, toasted to success and hard work, and then went home early for the weekend. On Monday, the female engineer didn't show up for work, no call, no email, and didn't respond to phone calls. Tuesday and Wednesday the same thing. On Thursday I received the "hostile work environment" claim stating that I had singled her out and referred to her specifically as a "bitch" and a "baby" and my favorite part, that we used sexist names such as "Factory Girl" in our everyday work environment. On Friday we met with our lawyer who explained that despite having three other witnesses that would testify that her story is shenanigans and that FactoryGirl is a commonly used library that we didn't name, it would be cheaper from a cost perspective and from a PR perspective to settle out of court. The settlement cost more than the project brought in.
QuantumChaos 12y ago
On selective perception, how could we tell the difference between (A) the author suffering from this bias, and women and men are equally good, and (B) the author is correct, and you think women and men are equally good employees because you suffer from the opposite bias. Selective perception may exist, but you've done nothing to show that the author's viewpoint is wrong and yours is right.

jasallen 12y ago

ignostic, I agree with you completely. One of the key differences I think, is that you think as a professional manager of people. The author thinks like a "do-er", a contributor, and is looking for people who work like her. She may be an unusual woman that tends more toward the male pattern of behavior, but that is just happenstance. One thing you both agree on, is that (whether she hates it or not) there are common differences between men and women that extend beyond appearance. Where I differ with her: Whether chromosomes or upbringing or micro-biota I don't care, those differences exist, they are useful diversification and should be accepted, even though they each need to be managed in their own way.

daveslash 12y ago
I agree with you jasallen - I also believe that there are common differences between the genders, albeit for a wide variety of reasons and with a lot of variation between individuals. I believe it's healthier to acknowledge that these differences are real than pretend that these differences don't exist. Unfortunately, this can also make things more difficult and complicated.

conductr 12y ago

I agree with your points and approach to manage the genders differently. However, I also recognize the author is simply frustrated by her realization that these stereotypes are based in reality. She's basically sympathizing with the people who she disagree with as a feminist. She recognizes it wrong, but doesn't have the time to fix it. The easy solution, for her, is to hire a man. When I shop for clothes I often look for a female to help me. In my experience I've had better results getting stuff I like with better advise from women. I know a man could sometimes be better, but I actively try to avoid men. It's just a simple filter I use to get to my ultimate goal quickly with a (perceived) higher level of success. I think this author is doing the same.

stcredzero 12y ago
attempt to build report with me better advise from women Off-topic, but doesn't it seem like iOS typing "correction" has knocked about 4 years off of the grade level of online writing?
- steffan 12y ago
  You're attributing this trend to iOS autocorrect? Such an optimist.
  - stcredzero 12y ago
    Look elsewhere in this thread: Not only am I an optimist, I happened to be right. (It's the plural of anecdotes that's data, of course.)
    - grkvlt 12y ago
      The anecdote/data statement is usually rendered "The plural of anecdote is not data" so your point is not strictly true. Obviously with enough consistent anecdotes, they can be considered as data, but n is going to have to be convincingly large... ;)
      - 12y ago

jjtheblunt 12y ago

typo: report -> rapport

ignostic 12y ago
Yep, edited.
- ignostic 12y ago
  Now that the thread has been flagged by HN's flamewar detection, I'd like to point out that three people correcting a single misspelled word is about as low as online discussion can get. HN will be better if you can get over nitpicking and try to add something to the conversation.
  - grkvlt 12y ago
    With the ability to send personal messages, this could be mitigated, but it's no fun to point out how much smarter you are to a single person, rather than the entire internet, when correcting someone's speling or grammar.

rbrcurtis 12y ago

Its worth noting that the way that women interact with other women is different than how they interact with men or how men interact with women. IE, Clarissa's experience as a female manager is going to be severely different than yours.

mamoswined 12y ago

"I have become profoundly tired of being a therapist and a babysitter" Then don't be one. I'm a female manager and as soon as that shit starts I shut it down. People only get away with that crap because people tolerate it and I notice they often tolerate it more with women. I don't. Someone who drains time with gossip or whining gets fired. Doesn't matter if they are a man or a woman. Also notice she talks about a receptionist, not an engineer. I admit I have struggled finding admin staff like receptionists that aren't drama queens. If you hired men for those kind of positions they'd be the same– these are lower status jobs and attract people who can't do well in high-paid higher status jobs. Since I work with some IT construction I also work with lower-status men and they are also very hard to manage. They often quit to mooch off of others or are late to work because of fights with their girlfriends or whatever.

throwaway516 12y ago
Throwaway for obvious reasons. Several years ago I managed a team of three male engineers and one female engineer (who was younger by the men by around 8-10 years) working on a typical software project complete with tight deadlines and the usual last minute rush. Two days before launch while trying to diagnose a particularly obscure bug the team digressed from trying to fix the bug to griping about which framework was used and why it was a bad decision and how unrealistic the expectations from the client were, etc. As a developer I can sympathize with this frustration so I let it go on for about 15-20 minutes and then I interrupted the group by saying something like "We can act like babies and whine and bitch about the things that are beyond our control or we can accept those facts, put our heads down and push forward like fucking adults". The language was rough, but I like everyone else had worked 60+ hours that week. The team begrudgingly agreed and after a coffee run went back to work. The project launched on time the next day (Friday) and everything seemed fine. We all went out for lunch, toasted to success and hard work, and then went home early for the weekend. On Monday, the female engineer didn't show up for work, no call, no email, and didn't respond to phone calls. Tuesday and Wednesday the same thing. On Thursday I received the "hostile work environment" claim stating that I had singled her out and referred to her specifically as a "bitch" and a "baby" and my favorite part, that we used sexist names such as "Factory Girl" in our everyday work environment. On Friday we met with our lawyer who explained that despite having three other witnesses that would testify that her story is shenanigans and that FactoryGirl is a commonly used library that we didn't name, it would be cheaper from a cost perspective and from a PR perspective to settle out of court. The settlement cost more than the project brought in.

QuantumChaos 12y ago

On selective perception, how could we tell the difference between (A) the author suffering from this bias, and women and men are equally good, and (B) the author is correct, and you think women and men are equally good employees because you suffer from the opposite bias. Selective perception may exist, but you've done nothing to show that the author's viewpoint is wrong and yours is right.