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He could start by rewriting his resume. This in particular stands out - Accomplishment highlights: * Autodidact. High school dropout. No degree. To almo

He could start by rewriting his resume. This in particular stands out - Accomplishment highlights: * Autodidact. High school dropout. No degree. To almost any employer, that is not an accomplishment, much less a highlight! If you're a high school dropout who is very accomplished since then, just silently drop any mention of your education from your resume. Everyone will assume that you left it off because it's irrelevant given all your experience since then. If the first paragraph of your resume calls attention to the fact that you didn't even graduate high school, it sets a bad tone for the rest. Many people will throw your resume away without reading further.

elliottcarlson 12y ago
Agreed - as someone who dropped out/lacking a degree, I have no mention of education on my resume and let my long work history present me the way I want to be seen. Early on in my career it held me back a little - at least to the point that I had to explain why I dropped out (and I believe I have a decent justification), but in the last 10 years it hasn't even come up.
jgrahamc 12y ago
Sad. A couple of months ago at the Go London User Group a young guy came up to me and told me he didn't have a degree, was totally self taught, and wanted to know if it was even worth him applying to CloudFlare. I told him to apply. He started last Monday. I can only speak for CloudFlare, but educational background is _a component_ of a candidate. But it's only _a component_, it's not everything. We're interested in what people know and what they can do. I honestly look more at people's personalities, employment history and Github than what college degree they have.
- throwaway283719 12y ago
  I'm glad that CloudFlare has a sensible approach to hiring, but sadly I think they will be the exception, rather than the rule.
  - iloveponies 12y ago
    As a degreeless, high school drop out who works for a very large corporation that's not the case. In a time where many are screaming about shortages in skilled IT people, mandating a degree is only going to narrow the already small pool of possible candidates down even further for no explicable gain. Many job advertisements I've seen will say "degree or relative experience", the latter being the key part here.
    - rbanffy 12y ago
      A degree is a proxy. A recruiter without specific knowledge cannot assess a developer's technical abilities in any meaningful way (even an extremely experienced developer can't reliably do so). The degree implies a school continuously assessed the individual abilities over the course of several years and found them acceptable enough to issue the degree. A degree offsets responsibility from the recruiter to the school/institution.
      - klibertp 12y ago
        > offsets responsibility from the recruiter Also from the potential hire himself. It's not that he sucks, his college didn't prepare him for this new role. It's not his lack of passion and really any deep interest in the craft, it's just that he had wrong lecturers, also most of them even weren't there to lecture most of the time, so what can you expect? So now we can hire him and train him for a year or more, because without it he's completely useless, but that's ok, because he's just like we expect him to be. On the other hand, this one here who was willing to take all the responsibility for himself, who's eager to prove his actual skill doing useful things, he's too dangerous, because... What? Because he could actually end up doing something, and then we'd feel bad? I'm not saying what you say is wrong, like in untrue, but I can't help but feel it's somehow unfair. > a school continuously assessed the individual abilities over the course of several years Yeah. Some abilities. That differs from person to person and from college to college, but these abilities may or may not be the ones you want to optimize for.
        12y ago
- jacquesm 12y ago
  Super nice to see that!
- madaxe_again 12y ago
  Ditto. I actually actively don't look at peoples qualifications when it comes to hiring, as I fervently believe that the ability to get a degree does not correlate to, well, anything in real life, other than what your tolerance to debt is, or how rich your parents are, or how compliant you are. None of those are really endearing qualities in a potential employee. It usually comes out conversationally months down the line, and we therefore are mathematicians, school & college drop-outs, physicists, chemists, geographers, and marine biologists - and all developers. In no small part this stance comes from my own experiences when I first set out into the world as a naïf graduate, thinking that a masters (Desmond - didn't let my degree get in the way of my education) in Physics from [redacted] was somehow valuable. Turns out that a first in urban forestry management counts for more with most employers, because HR witches don't actually understand the skills they're supposed to be assessing, and therefore just get told "throw everything that's not a 1st in the bin". Which is a despicable waste of talent, and why I therefore do not give two hoots what you studied or where, if at all.
  - throwaway283719 12y ago
    You say you believe that your ability to get a degree doesn't correlate to anything other than your tolerance to debt or how rich your parents are. But you clearly believe that your 2:2 in Physics (for Americans, a 3.0 GPA) is worth more than someone else's 1 in Urban Forestry Management (for Americans, a 3.7 GPA) so presumably you think that there is some variation in difficulty among degrees, and presumably you believe that smarter people will be able to get better degrees?
    - madaxe_again 12y ago
      But you clearly believe that your 2:2 Nope, I believed that. I now realise it's total bunkum, as while one degree may be more challenging than another, from a hiring manager's perspective it's the GPA/class that counts, and little else, and value is in the eye of the beholder.
- pekk 12y ago
  Thank you so much for what you did. And for saying this publicly. When your own situation is comfortable it's easy to lose sight of how being unable to get work makes you feel totally worthless and life hardly worth living. It is not right to throw people away and deny them the chance to contribute because they are imperfect in some irrelevant way.
  - mercer 12y ago
    Agreed! I've recently made the decision to try and move beyond my comfortable freelance existence, and instead try and enable 1) those who have trouble functioning in a 'normal' work environment, and 2) those who are starting with no portfolio or degree. It would make me happier (because what's fun about just living comfortably!), and it might help others. Win-win. But doing this from within an existing company is perhaps even better
- test1235 12y ago
  Theoretically, do you think CloudFlare would hire Xah Lee?
staircasebug 12y ago
From a certain perspective, one could view those as accomplishments in relation to all he has learned/accomplished and contributed within the coding community.
klibertp 12y ago
> If you're a high school dropout who is very accomplished since then, just silently drop any mention of your education from your resume. Yeah, do this, it really works, at least worked for me and apparently a couple of other commenters here. The general advice is to lie^Wdisplay social skills, ie. present your facts in a way which makes them look like they are what the other person is looking for, and hide everything which would interfere with your lie... I mean, story or narrative. People don't want to really know who you are, even if they tell you otherwise - especially in the professional setting. They want to read an interesting story and resume is the ultimate literary short form. For me writing a resume is very similar to writing a short story or novel, it's just even harder, because you're the main character. But the creation process and reception mechanisms are essentially the same. The only specific advice I could give is the same I'd give other aspiring writers: get yourself a competent editor (a human, not software!) and let your imagination run wild.
rbanffy 12y ago
Indeed. Xah's website and long history may impress a developer, but this is a huge DO NOT TOUCH sign for any career recruiter with little or no technical background. Even for a developer, it's a warning sign - it means your mileage may vary. He may be extremely bright in one thing, but one should not expect something predictable like a comp-sci graduate.

elliottcarlson 12y ago

Agreed - as someone who dropped out/lacking a degree, I have no mention of education on my resume and let my long work history present me the way I want to be seen. Early on in my career it held me back a little - at least to the point that I had to explain why I dropped out (and I believe I have a decent justification), but in the last 10 years it hasn't even come up.

jgrahamc 12y ago

Sad. A couple of months ago at the Go London User Group a young guy came up to me and told me he didn't have a degree, was totally self taught, and wanted to know if it was even worth him applying to CloudFlare. I told him to apply. He started last Monday. I can only speak for CloudFlare, but educational background is _a component_ of a candidate. But it's only _a component_, it's not everything. We're interested in what people know and what they can do. I honestly look more at people's personalities, employment history and Github than what college degree they have.

throwaway283719 12y ago
I'm glad that CloudFlare has a sensible approach to hiring, but sadly I think they will be the exception, rather than the rule.
- iloveponies 12y ago
  As a degreeless, high school drop out who works for a very large corporation that's not the case. In a time where many are screaming about shortages in skilled IT people, mandating a degree is only going to narrow the already small pool of possible candidates down even further for no explicable gain. Many job advertisements I've seen will say "degree or relative experience", the latter being the key part here.
  - rbanffy 12y ago
    A degree is a proxy. A recruiter without specific knowledge cannot assess a developer's technical abilities in any meaningful way (even an extremely experienced developer can't reliably do so). The degree implies a school continuously assessed the individual abilities over the course of several years and found them acceptable enough to issue the degree. A degree offsets responsibility from the recruiter to the school/institution.
    - klibertp 12y ago
      > offsets responsibility from the recruiter Also from the potential hire himself. It's not that he sucks, his college didn't prepare him for this new role. It's not his lack of passion and really any deep interest in the craft, it's just that he had wrong lecturers, also most of them even weren't there to lecture most of the time, so what can you expect? So now we can hire him and train him for a year or more, because without it he's completely useless, but that's ok, because he's just like we expect him to be. On the other hand, this one here who was willing to take all the responsibility for himself, who's eager to prove his actual skill doing useful things, he's too dangerous, because... What? Because he could actually end up doing something, and then we'd feel bad? I'm not saying what you say is wrong, like in untrue, but I can't help but feel it's somehow unfair. > a school continuously assessed the individual abilities over the course of several years Yeah. Some abilities. That differs from person to person and from college to college, but these abilities may or may not be the ones you want to optimize for.
      - 12y ago
jacquesm 12y ago
Super nice to see that!
madaxe_again 12y ago
Ditto. I actually actively don't look at peoples qualifications when it comes to hiring, as I fervently believe that the ability to get a degree does not correlate to, well, anything in real life, other than what your tolerance to debt is, or how rich your parents are, or how compliant you are. None of those are really endearing qualities in a potential employee. It usually comes out conversationally months down the line, and we therefore are mathematicians, school & college drop-outs, physicists, chemists, geographers, and marine biologists - and all developers. In no small part this stance comes from my own experiences when I first set out into the world as a naïf graduate, thinking that a masters (Desmond - didn't let my degree get in the way of my education) in Physics from [redacted] was somehow valuable. Turns out that a first in urban forestry management counts for more with most employers, because HR witches don't actually understand the skills they're supposed to be assessing, and therefore just get told "throw everything that's not a 1st in the bin". Which is a despicable waste of talent, and why I therefore do not give two hoots what you studied or where, if at all.
- throwaway283719 12y ago
  You say you believe that your ability to get a degree doesn't correlate to anything other than your tolerance to debt or how rich your parents are. But you clearly believe that your 2:2 in Physics (for Americans, a 3.0 GPA) is worth more than someone else's 1 in Urban Forestry Management (for Americans, a 3.7 GPA) so presumably you think that there is some variation in difficulty among degrees, and presumably you believe that smarter people will be able to get better degrees?
  - madaxe_again 12y ago
    But you clearly believe that your 2:2 Nope, I believed that. I now realise it's total bunkum, as while one degree may be more challenging than another, from a hiring manager's perspective it's the GPA/class that counts, and little else, and value is in the eye of the beholder.
pekk 12y ago
Thank you so much for what you did. And for saying this publicly. When your own situation is comfortable it's easy to lose sight of how being unable to get work makes you feel totally worthless and life hardly worth living. It is not right to throw people away and deny them the chance to contribute because they are imperfect in some irrelevant way.
- mercer 12y ago
  Agreed! I've recently made the decision to try and move beyond my comfortable freelance existence, and instead try and enable 1) those who have trouble functioning in a 'normal' work environment, and 2) those who are starting with no portfolio or degree. It would make me happier (because what's fun about just living comfortably!), and it might help others. Win-win. But doing this from within an existing company is perhaps even better
test1235 12y ago
Theoretically, do you think CloudFlare would hire Xah Lee?

staircasebug 12y ago

From a certain perspective, one could view those as accomplishments in relation to all he has learned/accomplished and contributed within the coding community.

klibertp 12y ago

> If you're a high school dropout who is very accomplished since then, just silently drop any mention of your education from your resume. Yeah, do this, it really works, at least worked for me and apparently a couple of other commenters here. The general advice is to lie^Wdisplay social skills, ie. present your facts in a way which makes them look like they are what the other person is looking for, and hide everything which would interfere with your lie... I mean, story or narrative. People don't want to really know who you are, even if they tell you otherwise - especially in the professional setting. They want to read an interesting story and resume is the ultimate literary short form. For me writing a resume is very similar to writing a short story or novel, it's just even harder, because you're the main character. But the creation process and reception mechanisms are essentially the same. The only specific advice I could give is the same I'd give other aspiring writers: get yourself a competent editor (a human, not software!) and let your imagination run wild.

rbanffy 12y ago

Indeed. Xah's website and long history may impress a developer, but this is a huge DO NOT TOUCH sign for any career recruiter with little or no technical background. Even for a developer, it's a warning sign - it means your mileage may vary. He may be extremely bright in one thing, but one should not expect something predictable like a comp-sci graduate.