17 ms·

I'm About as Good as Dead: The End of Xah Lee

363 points by craftsman 12y ago

cognivore 12y ago
Is there context here I'm missing? The screen shot with the legal fee leads me to believe so, but I can't sort it.
- qwpo 12y ago
  He mentions the IRS pulling money from his account, I think that's what the legal fee stuff in the bank account screenshot is about.
- akuchling 12y ago
  Lee is a noted Internet crank, very sure he's completely brilliant and everyone else is a moron. I remember his flaming about the quality of the Python documentation, e.g. https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2005-April/310515.html https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2005-April/310...
  - bigiain 12y ago
    Reading his name brought back memories of him trolling on comp.lang.perl.misc - that's gotta be 15+ years ago now...
  - mansr 12y ago
    He used to be trolling all over Usenet. There's a good chance he's made a very bad impression on just about anyone now in a position to hire him.
    - Grue3 12y ago
      Yeah, I remember him trolling in the Lisp newsgroup, which makes it hard for me to take his Emacs advice seriously.
    - isxek 12y ago
      Speaking of which: https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2005-April/355413.html https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2005-April/355...
  - Bootvis 12y ago
    I love Python but I have to admit: the Python regex docs don't let you get stuff done quickly.
  - bluefinity 12y ago
    Yeah, I have a feeling he might have burned a few bridges. https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2005-April/355413.html https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2005-April/355...
    - raverbashing 12y ago
      After reading his original post (of unnecessary expletives and excessive nitpicking) can't say I feel sorry for him
      - CatMtKing 12y ago
        http://xahlee.info/perl-python/xlali_skami_cukta.html http://xahlee.info/perl-python/xlali_skami_cukta.html Well, I think his criticisms are pretty well-founded. He just doesn't say it in a way you would enjoy.
        raverbashing 12y ago
        True, in this text there's a lot of things I agree, however, for example > If you are accustomed to Perl's semantics, the search operation is what you're looking for. > Its mentioning of Perl is irrelevant, since the majority reading that page will not have expertise with Perl regex. Are you sure? I assume a lot of python users (and the docs he's critiquing are not the latest, and may have some "old stuff") used Perl first. Perl users would be familiar with Regexes, so this is a useful piece of info Or, praising an example as good for a Python tutorial that uses the format def okaydokey(self): return "okaydokey" which is not recommended by PEP-8
      - azernik 12y ago
        Yeah, I can't either. But he does seem to have an eye for (un)readable documentation - the things he's criticizing are completely useless for a new reader. The invective needs to seriously get toned down, though.
    - cognivore 12y ago
      Oh, thanks, that clears it up. It's kind of ironic that after dumping all over the intarwebs he's now trying to rely on the good graces of the intarwebs. I imagine there's enough people out there it'll work at least a little.
  - danso 12y ago
    Holy shit I've been on HN too long...I've forgotten what real Internet flamewars/trolling was like.
  - laichzeit0 12y ago
    Not that it was a particularly well written "critque" of the documentation, but I've felt similar frustrations when tyring to work through the NodeJS documentation. Generally when you're used to something that's several orders of magnitude better, e.g. Java docs and you're then forced to work with turds after that it takes some getting used to. Sometimes you never get used to it. Come to think of it.
    - akuchling 12y ago
      Yes, a few good points were buried in that post, like "examples are good" and "re.M isn't, strictly speaking, a variable". In the past I've made corrections based on Lee's suggestions, but when good points are surrounded by arrogance and profanity, it's not surprising people stop listening.
  - stuaxo 12y ago
    Heh, he is right about the documentation - but his style is indeed cranky.
  - judah 12y ago
    From his complaints: "Fuck the mother fucking coders in the IT industry." Looks like he received the very thing he wished on others. "i don't have friends because i live like platonic monk hermit for last decade" This guy clearly needs some people skills.
moistgorilla 12y ago
Props for asking for help.
quizzas 12y ago
A cautionary tale about not having the requisite "minimum viable" social skills. A person with no STEM skills but above average social skills will almost always have a job (sales, management, con man) the reverse is a more difficult proposition.
phkahler 12y ago
So you claim to be a decent programmer, but haven't been working a traditional job in years because why? You claim to be smart but don't know the value of maintaining a basic financial safety net. It won't be hard to bail you out, but this should not be happening in the first place. Let it be a lesson to others. Or is this just a fake?
- KJasper 12y ago
  The problem lies here: "well, i can only say i procrastinate"
- nnq 12y ago
  It's obvious the guy needs some help to help him "pull out". Whether it's a friend, a psychologist, a psychiatrist or a "mystical" experience, he needs something. There's no point criticizing him, it's obvious nobody would hire him until he "pulls himself out of the hole". But if you live near him and have some spare time / expertise / willingness to help, be a decent human being and help him get to someone that could help or hire him. Most of are are not as "autonomous" as we think we are, and in unfavorable circumstances, we can all fall off the tracks. And get over the "but don't know the value of maintaining a basic financial safety net"... it's obvious that he already lost the "social safety net" of friends that could have told him this and probably a "psychological balance safety net" too, so it's a bit too late to be any point in telling him this...
  - throwaway_122 12y ago
    Realistically, what's the best kind of support he should be seeking right now? His linkedin profile doesn't say or at least I couldn't see his job profile. I would imagine it is going to be hard for him to get a job as a coder (with his reputation and all). Even if he does manage to raise $1600, that only helps him extend his current situation until next month. He said he's been living in some sort of isoloation ("platonic hermit monk") for the past decade. Maybe a job in a different field may help him give a different perspective from the one he's had for the past decade? What does one do if they become homeless in the Bay Area?
- 12y ago
bestest 12y ago
I simply can't resist it, but alas, see what will happen to you if you code in emacs! On the serious note though, he did admit he enjoys procrastinating. Why would I help someone who never had and still does not have any motivation?
- da4c30ff 12y ago
  Solidarity
- dfc 12y ago
  If you "simply cant resist" making a joke when another human is in the midst of a terrible situation you are a horrible person.
  - svisser 12y ago
    Terrible but self-inflicted?
    - dfc 12y ago
      I know that I am not perfect and have certainly made poor decisions in my life. But if you feel that being compassionate is not appropriate in this situation at the very least OP could stay quiet and not make jokes about another person's suffering.
      - bestest 12y ago
        Down-vote me all you can, but OP's situation is most definitely self inflicted. It's the same with drug addicts. They can't help it. You can be compassionate with them, but it won't help them. What they need is a kick in their arse to fling them out of their comfort zone and embrace the big changes. Hopefully, OP's new job shall open his eyes and guide him in the right direction. He does not seem to be handicapped neither mentally nor physically -- and there are millions of people in much more need than such a victim of procrastination. Don't fret, OP'll be fine.
danso 12y ago
Almost sent the OP money through PayPal, but I saw this at the bottom of the post: > i won't actually be able to draw money from paypal, due to bank/IRS problem. Which is confusing because in a few lines above, this is written: > if you can help, paypal to xah@xahlee.org Can someone who knows the OP provide more context to all of this?
- DennisP 12y ago
  Sounds like a case for bitcoin.
  - dkersten 12y ago
    How's he going to buy his noodles with bitcoin?
    - nawitus 12y ago
      http://fukuronoodlebar.com/bitcoin/ http://fukuronoodlebar.com/bitcoin/
      - jnettome 12y ago
        $80
    - DennisP 12y ago
      If nothing else, trade for other currencies on localbitcoin.
- rando289 12y ago
  I don't know if he updated the page since you read it, but it says he would prefer a check sent to him or 2 professor associates of his. I'm sure he will be able to use the money on paypal too and he is open to donations using it.
wfjackson 12y ago
Edit: He seems to have a lot of interest and worked a lot on good documentation, which is the bane of the typical OSS project. Why doesn't Red Hat/Google etc. throw some money at him to write docs for underdocumented OSS stuff? Sounds like win win for all. It's hard to find really smart developers that are interested in writing documentation.[End edit] If you don't really know him, his LinkedIn profile shows more details about his work. http://www.linkedin.com/in/xahlee http://www.linkedin.com/in/xahlee Xah Lee's Summary Full stack web site development. Heavy backend experience + unix sys adimn. Seek startupish, small team engineers environment. Accomplishment highlights: • Autodidact. High school dropout. No degree. • Taught graduate math students at National Center for Theoretical Sciences, Taiwan. • Invited speaker to Geometry And Visualization workshop, Tokyo Metropolitan University. • Work cited in US Patent. • Well-known open source contributor in emacs and LISP communities. • Expert in: JavaScript, Perl, Python, PHP, Emacs Lisp, Mathematica, MyLinux, SQL, Second Life Linden Scripting Language. Each with at least ten thousand lines of code. (working knowledge Java) Specialties: • Design, code, entire system. Understand language, protocols, raw. Do not depends on frameworks/libs when unnecessary. Portforlio: • Xah's JavaScript Tutorial 〔 http://xahlee.info/js/js.html http://xahlee.info/js/js.html 〕 • Xah's {Python, Perl, Ruby} Tutorial 〔 http://xahlee.info/perl-python/index.html http://xahlee.info/perl-python/index.html 〕 • Xah Emacs Lisp Tutorial 〔 http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/elisp.html http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/elisp.html 〕 • Xah's Java Tutorial 〔 http://xahlee.info/java-a-day/java.html http://xahlee.info/java-a-day/java.html 〕 • Xah Linux Tutorial 〔 http://xahlee.info/linux/linux_index.html http://xahlee.info/linux/linux_index.html 〕 • Xah's HTML5 Tutorial 〔 http://xahlee.info/js/index.html http://xahlee.info/js/index.html 〕 • Xah's CSS53 Tutorial 〔 http://xahlee.info/js/css_index.html http://xahlee.info/js/css_index.html 〕 • Programing Language Design 〔 http://xahlee.info/comp/comp_lang.html http://xahlee.info/comp/comp_lang.html 〕 Xah Lee's Experience Author and Webmaster XahLee.info January 2007 – Present (7 years 5 months) San Francisco Bay Area Creator and author of award-winning website http://xahlee.info/ http://xahlee.info/ , since 1997. • 8 thousand visitors per day. 240 thousand visitors per month. • 5 thousand HTML pages • Frequently cited in academic journals as well as online sites such as StackOverflow, Hacker News, Reddit, Wikipedia. Also cited by Microsoft TypeScript publication. (see list of citations below.) Published more than 50 software. Have a look at • Xah's JavaScript Tutorial 〔 http://xahlee.info/js/js.html http://xahlee.info/js/js.html 〕 • Xah's {Python, Perl, Ruby} Tutorial 〔 http://xahlee.info/perl-python/index.html http://xahlee.info/perl-python/index.html 〕 • Xah Emacs Lisp Tutorial 〔 http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/elisp.html http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/elisp.html 〕 • Xah's Java Tutorial 〔 http://xahlee.info/java-a-day/java.html http://xahlee.info/java-a-day/java.html 〕 • Xah Linux Tutorial 〔 http://xahlee.info/linux/linux_index.html http://xahlee.info/linux/linux_index.html 〕 • Programing Language Design 〔 http://xahlee.info/comp/comp_lang.html http://xahlee.info/comp/comp_lang.html 〕 Xah Lee's Projects Programming Tutorial: Python June 2006 to Present Team Members: Xah Lee
driverdan 12y ago
> why i didn't seek job all these years? well, i can only say i procrastinate and is ok living on a dime. Why would anyone give this guy money? It sounds like his money woes are all his fault. He's just begging online rather than begging in the street.
- sanxiyn 12y ago
  Well one thing he is doing is soliciting donation for his Emacs Tutorial, which he provides for free on his website. I don't think that is begging, and think it is entirely appropriate. You won't care about that if you didn't read his Emacs Tutorial. But if you did, consider donating.
- leoc 12y ago
  Don't the poor and those in hardship have the right to beg? Besides, as sanxiyn said, he does have something to offer in return.
yung_ether 12y ago
Who would hire a 45 year old programmer? Certainly good as dead. Have fun at the laundry.
- digitalzombie 12y ago
  > Who would hire a 45 year old programmer? Certainly good as dead. Have fun at the laundry. That's... age discrimination. This is illegal in California. He could get hire if he can past interviews or have notable projects.
  - pistle 12y ago
    But difficult, if not impossible, to prove and costly to try to attack. The age difference is often not even really a conscious thing. It is expressed in "cultural fit" by most young interviewers. Older devs simply are detached from core pieces of younger culture. Whether that's music, integration into workplace rhythms, lanugage, etc. It's important to specialize some, get broad technically (don't only know everything COBOL), and to force yourself to at least understand the hot new things enough to be able to speak FROM EXPERIENCE about why you want said hot new thing off your lawn... but still be willing to play along. If you need to work for someone else, you need to balance your tech-righteousness with someone else's, often youthfully naive, ego.
    - vidarh 12y ago
      > The age difference is often not even really a conscious thing. It can even be as simple as a work schedule that is hard to meet for anyone with children. E.g. shifting the start and end of the work day one hour later can be enough to make childcare a nightmare to secure many places.
- crashandburn4 12y ago
  Wow... I don't even have words. I get that your comment is supposed to be dark humour but that's pretty heartless, this guys got actual troubles.
- evo_9 12y ago
deadghost 12y ago
I've come across his blog multiple times when I started with emacs and he seems like a cool guy(anyone that can spoon raw oatmeal into his mouth like it's the greatest thing ever is cool by my book). It's great he's asking for help instead of showing up on the front page as another dead hacker.
- HeyLaughingBoy 12y ago
  Totally OT, but when I was a kid, raw oatmeal and brown sugar was one of my favorite treats.I hated it cooked. Even now, I still like raw oats right off the stalk, though it's a lot of work for such small reward.
- andywood 12y ago
  Please remember that line. We all forget so quickly.
rando289 12y ago
Xah's website has been an amazing resource for emacs users, me included. I really hope someone can help him out a bit.
throwaway283719 12y ago
He could start by rewriting his resume. This in particular stands out - Accomplishment highlights: * Autodidact. High school dropout. No degree. To almost any employer, that is not an accomplishment, much less a highlight! If you're a high school dropout who is very accomplished since then, just silently drop any mention of your education from your resume. Everyone will assume that you left it off because it's irrelevant given all your experience since then. If the first paragraph of your resume calls attention to the fact that you didn't even graduate high school, it sets a bad tone for the rest. Many people will throw your resume away without reading further.
- elliottcarlson 12y ago
  Agreed - as someone who dropped out/lacking a degree, I have no mention of education on my resume and let my long work history present me the way I want to be seen. Early on in my career it held me back a little - at least to the point that I had to explain why I dropped out (and I believe I have a decent justification), but in the last 10 years it hasn't even come up.
- jgrahamc 12y ago
  Sad. A couple of months ago at the Go London User Group a young guy came up to me and told me he didn't have a degree, was totally self taught, and wanted to know if it was even worth him applying to CloudFlare. I told him to apply. He started last Monday. I can only speak for CloudFlare, but educational background is _a component_ of a candidate. But it's only _a component_, it's not everything. We're interested in what people know and what they can do. I honestly look more at people's personalities, employment history and Github than what college degree they have.
  - throwaway283719 12y ago
    I'm glad that CloudFlare has a sensible approach to hiring, but sadly I think they will be the exception, rather than the rule.
    - iloveponies 12y ago
terhechte 12y ago
Xah, if you're reading this: Based on the comments on your page it is not clear whether you can or can't accept money via Paypal. Your Emacs resources have always been very helpful to me. I'd be willing to send you some money. Do you happen to have a Bitcoin address that I could send something to?
- slackpad 12y ago
  He's got his PayPal email address listed first thing under How to Help.
- IanKelling 12y ago
  I just spoke to Xah on the phone. He does want people to donate to his paypal address. He can transfer it to someone to cash it out if needed. He will be making further updates on his site, probably later today to be clear about that. He will be looking into bitcoin also. So feel free to donate, I think at least his contributions to emacs documentation make it worthwhile.
  - IanKelling 12y ago
    And he has now updated the post to clarify about paypal.
  - zymhan 12y ago
    Can't he get a Paypal debit card for free, so that he can spend the money directly from the account?
    - rando289 12y ago
      Yes, he can. Some people don't know about that yet.
thegeomaster 12y ago
I don't think anyone should judge him based on the small amount of information available. I understand that his situation is mostly his fault, but there may be other things at play. Why be so fast to condemn someone when an unfortunate sequence of events could've put some of us into a similar situation? I'm not defending Xah Lee's irresponsibility nor I am defending people who condemn him, I just want to say that we are all imperfect, after all, and these kinds of things can and do happen because of that fact.
- mansr 12y ago
  He spent decades trolling everyone and everything on Usenet and mailing lists. He had it coming.
  - thegeomaster 12y ago
    Some more info? Didn't catch that.
  - hyperpape 12y ago
    I hope that the world will have more mercy on you than you give. Xah has been a pain in the ass for a lot of people, but I do not wish anyone to be left without healthcare or homeless, regardless of what they have done. Even criminals get locked up and fed. Opinions like yours simply have no place anywhere.
    - nilsimsa 12y ago
      What are you doing to help him?
  - marincounty 12y ago
    Really dude? Had it coming? Spend next Sunday in church. I think his unemployment might have to do more with his age? I know to many unemployed programmers over 45 years of age. Two are literally homeless. Time goes by quick--just when you think you will always be in demand; you get that Friday meeting. You just might feel this guys agony in a few years, but you sound like a spolied brat--who's family will always be there to pay the rent.
peterwwillis 12y ago
He needs to find a social services office that can help him get organized and take care of his personal responsibilities. It's completely his fault that he's in this mess, but he probably has some kind of personal/mental health problem that requires assistance. The one thing nobody should do is simply send him money or give him a job, since there's nothing on this page that indicates he won't go back to exactly the same thing he's been doing for the past 10 years. (Also, 1600 rent? what the fucking fuck? dude needs to go sleep in a shelter and use that money to get a thrift store interview suit and pay off his bills)
- hadoukenio 12y ago
  It's sad. Almost everyone (including people on that Python mailing list thread below) has jumped on him calling him a troll while (not to their own fault) missing that this guy has mental health issues. He needs professional help not money.
  - DanBC 12y ago
    Some people are just assholes and do not have mental health problems. Unless you're widening the definition for MH problem to include things like anger or Asperger's syndrome.
    - epsylon 12y ago
      Being an asshole is a mental problem.
      - peterwwillis 12y ago
        It can also be an occupation, such as working for the government, or the Free Software Foundation.
    - ForHackernews 12y ago
      Those people could certainly benefit from working with a counselor. There's a wide range of "personality disorders" that are maybe not "mental health problems" requiring medication, but are still issues that take external help to solve.
partisan 12y ago
I can empathize and I feel bad for anyone in what feels like a helpless and hopeless situation. I sometimes feel like I am there as well despite having "enough" money for a rainy season or two. Some people need to hit rock bottom to even begin to understand that there is light at the end of the tunnel. Manual labor, however humiliating and seemingly beneath him, may give him the proper motivation he seems to be lacking.
- DanielStraight 12y ago
  I think this explains the vastly different reactions to the author's post. His mental state, I can easily empathize with. So if I focus on that, my reply will be very positive. But at the same time, he is calling the every day experience of something like 1/3 of Americans "as good as dead", which is frankly insulting to those who do it their whole lives and even support families doing it. Having to do manual labor for minimum wage is not as good as dead, it is an obstacle. And it is an obstacle that many people have overcome. I wish the author nothing but the best, but his ability to improve his situation is going to depend on his ability to change his attitude regarding work and what he needs to live. I hope he does. I hope he finds something or someone that will push him in the right direction. But that's what he needs, not a monetary handout. Working as a dish washer isn't going to kill him. It hasn't killed the thousands of other people doing it, some of whom are even happy about their lives and hopeful about the future.
  - vezzy-fnord 12y ago
    I don't think you read the whole thing. Among minimum wage labor, he also mentioned impending homelessness, lack of private transportation (which, at least in the USA, is a huge impediment) and a total of $23 in life savings, which is pretty bad, even for a lot of people in rough situations. I don't know if he's "as good as dead", but he's in a hard place, certainly. More than you're giving him credit for.
    - DanielStraight 12y ago
      I did read the whole thing, several times. His situation sucks, I'm not denying that. But why would his likelihood of homelessness be any greater than anyone else working minimum wage? Can he not do what everyone else with a shitty job does and get a shitty apartment with a bunch of roommates for a few hundred a month? Can he not get food stamps like everyone else with minimal income? I'm not trying to criticize his current feeling of hopelessness. I'm just saying that his situation isn't, in fact, hopeless and that the only way it's ever going to get any better is if he realizes that it isn't hopeless and starts working his ass off to make it better. And I'm not criticizing him for not having already come to that realization either. It's hard. It takes times. It probably takes help from others who have been there. But it is the only way forward. It's wrong to be unsympathetic to his plight, but I think it's just as wrong to withhold the truth that many other people have faced the same situation and gotten through it by persistently working their asses off until things got better. He can do this. Anyone reading this in a similar situation, you can do this. It will suck. There's no point in being coy about that. But if you do what it takes to keep working, and work and save smartly, you can get through it. Don't give up hope.
graycat 12y ago
There may be some government and/or privately funded social services in the area that could help him, e.g., emergency rent money, housing, food, counseling. His Web site with 240 K visitors a month, with some ads, should be enough to help him significantly.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
nkozyra 12y ago
I don't know that this is necessarily a good idea when the IRS has a lock on your account(s), either: >> better, send your check to: [snip]
seansoutpost 12y ago
Xah,It really sounds like you need a bitcoin address. Coinbase.com (YC S12) is a great place to start. Once you have some coins, you will find no shortage of people in the bay area willing to buy them off of you. I would even be willing to run a btc fundraiser on your behalf. I don't have a lot of rep on here, but it's pretty solid in the bitcoin space. Google Jason King Bitcoin or Sean's Outpost Best of luck, man. Stay strong.
- SandB0x 12y ago
  > Xah,It really sounds like you need a bitcoin address. Only on Hacker News. This guy needs professional support for his mental health issues, food to eat and help in finding a steady job.
louhike 12y ago
At the bottom of the page: "if you can help, paypal to xah@xahlee.org buy my tutorial: Buy Xah Emacs Tutorial (http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/buy_xah_emacs_tutorial.html http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/buy_xah_emacs_tutorial.html) Xah's JavaScript Tutorial (http://xahlee.info/js/js.html http://xahlee.info/js/js.html) Xah's {Python, Perl, Ruby} Tutorial or buy my entire xahlee.info site content for $50. see ∑ Xah Code (http://xahlee.info/perl-python/index.html http://xahlee.info/perl-python/index.html) 〔☛ Xah Lee's Resume〕 or, send paypal to this my previous effort to something similar to a kickstart. https://pledgie.com/campaigns/19973 https://pledgie.com/campaigns/19973 i won't actually be able to draw money from paypal, due to bank/IRS problem. So better, send your check to: Huynh Kang at huynh.kang facebook (https://www.facebook.com/huynh.kang https://www.facebook.com/huynh.kang) or huynh-kang linkedin (http://www.linkedin.com/pub/huynh-kang/24/8b/535 http://www.linkedin.com/pub/huynh-kang/24/8b/535) professor Richard Palais, home page at University of California Irvine http://vmm.math.uci.edu/ http://vmm.math.uci.edu/, Wikipedia Richard Palais, richard-palais on linkedin"
kayyyl 12y ago
If you really think you can code, Fiverr (http://www.fiverr.com/ http://www.fiverr.com/) is the place you have to go. There're many little jobs for you. Do 5 per day, let's do it now mate.
mercer 12y ago
Cases like this, when the talented person in question is a geek who "doesn't interview well," always frustrate me. Most of my professional success is a result of social skills and a lot of experience with wildly different social environments and cultures. While I do work hard at being actually good at what I do (because that's just more fun!), I could get pretty far as a cruddy developer. And that just feels unfair, and frustrating. I do understand that social skills matter when you work for a company, in a team, but it often feels like they're way too important (evidence: incompetent people at top positions in companies who primarily excel at manipulation or are extremely socially skilled). Of course, there's a difference between a geek who just lacks social skills, and a geek who is just not a nice person and also lacks social skills to hide this (or lacks social skills because of this). I've met my share of those. But even then, it's hard to (fully) blame the person in question. I've met my fair share of arrogant, abrasive, unsympathetic, or misogynistic geeks who seem to have mostly become that as a reaction to having been bullied or ostracized. Often, it's self-defense or just inability, and quite frankly the main reason I didn't turn out that way was because I was in the right place at the right time, and I had wonderful peers who dragged me out of my isolation. It just sucks. And I wish I could fix that. I can't imagine how frustrating it must be to know that you are competent, or even well above average, and still not get the jobs that downright incompetent people seem to have no trouble getting. (I don't mean to justify 'bad' behavior, by the way, but to a degree understanding where it comes from allows me to still sympathize with, say, a racist.)
- overgard 12y ago
  I get what you're saying, but I also tend to think: if they're so smart, why not learn some social skills? It's not like being socially awkward has to be an innate thing; they're called social skills for a reason, you can learn them. Many people were once socially awkward, and then fixed it. It's not particularly fair, but social awkwardness does tend to send a signal about what people value. And what a socially awkward person clearly does not particularly value is time spent with other people. I'm not saying everyone needs to be a gregarious extrovert (I'm certainly not), but if I were looking to hire someone, I'd be a bit concerned if it was obvious that they had no real interest in anything that isn't directly within their bubble. It's not just "are they skilled" it's, are they actually going to fit in the company?
userbinator 12y ago
Did he just post a screenshot of his bank account with the session key visible in the URL!? (I know it's probably not too significant and there are other checks in place, but I found it rather ironic when the text right above it happens to be "I try to be VERY VERY careful".)
- peterwwillis 12y ago
  The majority of his debit acct # is also visible. But seeing as he hasn't been very careful with the rest of his life, why should his empty bank acct be any different?
  - swalsh 12y ago
    Who's going to commit fraud for $22.53?
- madaxe_again 12y ago
  Actually, it's even better. He was browsing pr0n when taking that screenshot. Google those imgur filenames in the downloads bar.... facepalm
  - gebe 12y ago
    I don't think that bothers him. He has discussed his views and tastes regarding pornography (with explicit examples) before on his site. He also has a travellog from Las Vegas that includes a visit to a prostitute. He's quite a character and his site includes posts about everything from math and tech to the stuff I mentioned above.
    - userbinator 12y ago
      That it doesn't bother him is not the problem; that it may bother his potential employers is. When looking at his site from the point of view of someone who could be interested in hiring him, it certainly leaves a strong impression - but unfortunately, not a positive one.
  - 12y ago
demoncore 12y ago
emacs'll do that to you.
cenazoic 12y ago
Sacha Chua recently did one of her "Emacs Chats" with Xah Lee: http://sachachua.com/blog/category/podcast/emacs-chat-podcast/#post-27224 http://sachachua.com/blog/category/podcast/emacs-chat-podcas...
logfromblammo 12y ago
Sounds like the guy needs a friend more than he needs a job.
- sanxiyn 12y ago
  He has friends. Read the post again.
  - logfromblammo 12y ago
    I read it again. What you may not realize is that people with many friends and people with few or none have different meanings for that word. He may simply be describing the two people that would actually notice if he vanished from the face of the planet as his friends because that is the closest thing he has to one. It's fine to wash dishes if you need money, but if he ever wants a better life for himself, putting up with the annoyances of people who are not like you is a skill that must be both learned and practiced. Introverts, especially extreme loner hermits, have to sacrifice some of their essential spiritual essence to the vampiric extroverts occasionally, in order to have a better quality of being left the hell alone the rest of the time. A guy like this really needs a mediator to introduce him to more outgoing types, let them have a taste, and then protect him before they scare him back into the shell. It's very unlikely he could do it alone.
  - nicarus1984 12y ago
    > i don't have a car, and i don't have friends because i live like a platonic monk hermit for past decade. "i don't have friends" Literally, some [new] human contact may help him tremendously.
drstrangevibes 12y ago
Xah Lees contribution to the community is greater than the combined contribution of all of the people that question his resume, or site it as 'skimpy'
killnine 12y ago
http://www.sendameal.com http://www.sendameal.com
garretraziel 12y ago
This is mostly unfortunate. As an Emacs user, I have read a lot of his tutorials and they are very good, I will consider buying one of them (but I don't understand; does or doesn't he accept money through paypal?). On the side note, he should really edit that bank account screenshot. These downloaded images really looks like they were downloaded from imgur. And if you type those filenames into imgur...
drstrangevibes 12y ago
how many of you people that site Xah as irresponsible would be homeless in siz months if they lost their income? I'm a slightly older hacker and I've seen bubbles like this before, they dont always last and just because you are riding the wave at the moment doesnt give you the right to look down at someone who has made a few wrong turns. If half of you critics had found yourself in his proposition you wouldnt have the skills, resources, or courage to try fight you way out of it. Its shameful that you think your minor contribution in 1 or 2 companies gives you the right to look down on someone who has done so much for the community
pawelkomarnicki 12y ago
WTF? "why i didn't seek job all these years? well, i can only say i procrastinate and is ok living on a dime."
- chaostheory 12y ago
  my question is, if he's "procrastinating" why didn't he just rent a room instead of a whole apartment? Better yet why not move back to his parent's place? When I was single, I never rented an apartment on my own. I always had a roomate(s).
geetee 12y ago
I couldn't help but see what tqOSxqI.jpg is on imgur. NSFW
auganov 12y ago
Wow, that's pretty shocking. As an emacs user I'd often stumble upon his articles. Even bought an emacs autohotkey-mode from him. It's so strange to see a person you thought was this amazing genius that surely did well for himself struggle like that. Hope you take care of your problems Xah.
chj 12y ago
I read some of his emacs related posts before, not that pleasant to read, but can be very helpful.
BryanBigs 12y ago
I feel for him - he seems to suffering both mentally and physically. But I have a hard time believing he hasn't legally had to file his taxes for the past 10 years. At the very least, if he really has only had $1k in income (which isn't credible - he's showing $700 of income on that bank statement alone) he would have gotten a few hundo from the EITC - which when you only make $1k is a big deal. And admitting you didn't file for 10 years isn't going to help him going forward either. Hate to see someone in pain - but this really looks self-inflicted.
Globz 12y ago
From the python mailing list: Xah Lee wrote: > What does a programer who wants to use regex gets out from this piece of motherfking irrevalent drivel? > Any resume that ever crosses my desk that includes 'Xah Lee' anywhere in the name will be automatically trashed. -rbt at athop1.ath.vt.edu
fantomass 12y ago
If you look at Xah's website with the eyes of business owner it could be a problem that that it handles a lot of exotic stuff, that is almost never a subject in a small to medium IT companies, but is written and fostered with great passion and care. So there might be concerns if he would fit in to company with all its mundane day to day problems. I think I would be helpful if he could do an internship or some sort of a program, where he can prove his capabilities to do - "boring" stuff - follow orders of his boss - working teams Once this is approved, he might had better chances.
yiedyie 12y ago
I anything this story tells is how much hacker need to adapt to business as usual. So much for the power to change.
saalweachter 12y ago
Reading the blog/comments I don't think a development job is what he needs/wants. I think what he really needs is a patron. So why not Patreon? Some people find value in the content he creates, and his needs are modest. It is not implausible that enough people are willing to chip in to keep him going, and Patreon provides a way to do that.
rafekett 12y ago
Xah needs to seek help for his mental illness. Look at his posts on comp.lang.emacs for evidence. He's been spending all these years on $3 a day trying to figure out a more "ergonomic" keyboard for emacs, but many of his suggestions are really just based on what he wants and are less ergonomic than standard emacs. EDIT: comp.lang.emacs doesn't exist, it's been many years. gnu.emacs.BLAH
- chaired 12y ago
  Some find this type of labeling helpful. Some find it unhelpful. At any rate, we should probably tread carefully. People with mental illness need jobs as much as, if not more than, those who pass for normal. I know. I have suffered from serious mental issues for 18 years. In that same time, I have enjoyed a long, exciting, and storied career; and I know that my employers have been grateful.
  - rafekett 12y ago
    My intention wasn't to label anyone. Xah has been a disruptive and counterproductive presence in the emacs community, but I think it's because he needs help he's not getting. He spent his time in poverty fighting flame wars on usenet -- he needs to get his priorities straight. I buy he's a smart guy who can get a lot done, but he's not employable in his current state, and I don't think the right solution is to give him money so he can continue to live like he does.
    - DanBC 12y ago
      "Diagnosing" people when you're not a doctor and when your only contact with that person is written stuff on the Internet is stigmatising. It keeps people with mental illness out of work (because employers illegally consider that person to be a riskier hire) and it does little to help the person being discussed who might just be an asshole rather than being someone with a diagnosable MH illness.
chaired 12y ago
1 ) Perhaps this could be the start of Xah Lee learning some social skills. If so, good on him. He'll go a lot further with them. 2 ) Surely someone in this community can offer him a job writing documentation, at the least? Think of it as charity if you must, but he will probably deliver good value, and he would probably be happy to work cheap, if you're into that sort of thing. 3 ) I will donate $, since that's what I can do from where I am.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
methehack 12y ago
I sent him $10.
arjn 12y ago
What about an Indiegogo campaign to help this guy out ?
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
jqm 12y ago
This kind of case is why I don't think guaranteed income will work. Some people won't even be able to manage that money. We have to find a way to insure people have the basics without money (in their hands anyway). The salvation army type/soup kitchen programs aren't it. No dignity, 5000 other guys (a significant percentage of which would slit your throat for a rock), an underlying "join the cult theme".... no, that environment doesn't make things better. Basic privacy and dignity are needs too. And if someone is going to become productive they need access to basic tools like a computer also. If people like Lee could forget about money and work on what they love I think the world would have more for it. Or else a lot more trolling. IDK... I think what we are seeing here is similar to heroin addiction or alcoholism. But this is an internet 24-7/ trolling rush/ porn addiction that makes it hard to live in the real world. I bet his isn't the only case either. I recommend a three month cold turkey session in the woods of Canada this summer. No net. Up at dawn chopping wood. Real face to face interaction most of the day. Fix this poor fellow right up and give him a new lease on life. I do feel for his case... in the same way someone who drinks a little more than they should might feel for homeless drunk passed out on the sidewalk.
- jqm 12y ago
  I don't mind down votes. At the same time I am curious how someone could feel significantly differently than the point of view I posted to down vote it. Does someone not believe an internet addiction is partly to blame for Lee's problems? That this isn't a disorder or there isn't a treatment? That his basic needs should not be met? That our social support service system doesn't need a pivot? What exactly is the argument?
Beanis 12y ago
I interviewed/phone screened Xah Lee about 2 years ago. I'd never heard of him, so I skimmed over his resume and checked out his site an hour or two before the call. I remember when I was looking at his site I was seeing various articles around math and programming, and then articles about things like "2 girls 1 cup". The breadth of articles completely threw me off. He seemed to have this unfocused interest in EVERYTHING. After looking over everything I could I had no idea how we'd be able to use him, but I was really interested in talking with him. I went into the call expecting a lot of tangents about various topics he was passionate about and thinking I'd constantly have to refocus the conversation. Instead the conversation was pretty boring and not really going anywhere. He had breadth, but the depth was not there. At least not for the things I brought up. I couldn't understand how someone who seemed to be interested in everything could have no real interest in anything. For the last couple of minutes we talked about his site, and how he maintains/updates it. He finally seemed to light up, and we hit on something he was really interested in talking about. The basics of the site looked like it was just a couple of scripts, a lot of static text files and some emacs. The setup might have been impressive in the mid-to-early 90's, but it wasn't relevant to anything we would have wanted/needed. The call lasted maybe 20 minutes, and then we wrapped it up. Every topic, other than talking about his site, was a dead-end. My internal feedback at the end was: "No! Maybe... if we were trying to hire encyclopedia writers". I think his main problem with interviews is that his real-life personality doesn't even come close to his online personality. If I would have gone in expecting the standard slightly-awkward developer interview, things might have gone better. I still would have said no, but it would have been a weaker no.
- jpwgarrison 12y ago
  >"...internal feedback..." Not so internal anymore! Don't get me wrong, I read your comment with interest, but then was struck with how we are talking about him as if he _was_ dead. Apparently he likes his life to be public but actual job interviews somehow strike me as private.
  - Beanis 12y ago
    You're right. I was thinking about it for a while and have seen his name show up other times where I've thought about commenting and haven't. Normally I wouldn't say anything, and it would have stayed personal and private. I hovered over the submit buttton for a few minutes and then even after I submitted I was hovering over the delete link for a few minutes. I wanted to give some perspective on what "not interviewing well" means in this case. It seemed as if a lot of comments were assuming age discrimination and issues with mental illness among other things. I wouldn't doubt that is the case sometimes, but from my experience that wasn't the case. There were other issues. I'm sure most people who interview him run into the same issues. I think his biggest interviewing problem is that he can't live up to the expectations others will expect from a one-man encyclopedia.
brudgers 12y ago
Writing is thinking and one person's philosophical pondering can be another's trolling, e.g. this post. Sure trolling is sometimes just being an asshat. But it's also a way of creating diversity. An attempt to deprogram members of a cargo cult. It can be fighting group think and ideological tribalism. I've come to think about trolling as often being an expression of a desire to write - it's very essence is writing something that didn't need to be written and doing so in a way that's tailored to one's audience. Just as sarcasm can be a low form of wit, trolling can be a low form of literature. If everyone who trolled the Usenet or a mailing list or an online forum was condemned for it, who would be left and would anyone want to read what they had to say. Xah Lee is a person whose particular genius doesn't fit well into a prefabricated category. But his website expresses a genuine desire to help others by sharing what he knows - and what he knows, he knows really well. There but for the grace of god, go I.
- chaired 12y ago
  Thank you so much for writing this.
- Bahamut 12y ago
  You can do every one of these things without trolling. If trolling is used for such a purpose, it often has the effect of fostering groupthink - you often see it in places like 4chan. Trolling when used for these purposes is often used as a substitute for well-reasoned/articulate point, and has the irresponsible effect of causing grief when it could be pre-empted by simple actions. To not take those actions is often an indication of callousness. Note: I claim no knowledge on Xah's case, and am not commenting on it.
  - brudgers 12y ago
    I apologize for not being more articulate. I'm not suggesting that there are not better forms of writing than trolling or that trolling is something to encourage. My point is psychological: a meaningful fraction of trolling behavior is driven by a desire to write. Writing something to which you respond at length gives me an opportunity to write a counter response. It gives me the opportunity to analyize your arguments and rebut them. In other words, it provides an opportunity to write just as presenting a reasoned and rational argument does...only on most of the internet even more so. Trolling is the primary form of entertainment on much of the internet. Outrageous flame wars sell popcorn to the peanut gallery. Some people enjoy watching opponents practice their craft in combat. That's not to say that that impulse to write can't be channeled to a more productive tone and more constructive ends. But the urge to write is what makes for great writing...or at least its possibility. Writing like an asshat just happens to be a path of least resistance. Sarcasm and meanness provide easy material. They prompt a reaction and getting feedback is how a writer can improve their craft and flaming and trolling are crafts - just somewhat destructive ones. All that trolling manifests itself in the quality of much of the material on Xah Lee's site. He's been writing for more than two decades.
muyuu 12y ago
What in the f*. I've been following this guy since a bit before Orkut/Tribe days when he had full hair (~2003?). He's been very inspirational. At first I thought he was a bit of a jerk and a troll (not the right place or time to elaborate on this, but well this was long ago so it doesn't matter) but when I saw him take on his education in his 30s I was quite impressed with what he achieved. I think this guy is top drawer and seems hard working. I have no idea what happened to him, although I do guess his peculiar character has a lot to do with it.
- mercer 12y ago
  It could perhaps be the effects of isolation (which, as recent submissions and discussions here make evident, can have a huge effect on a person). I've had periods in my life where I withdrew from others, and every time I recovered, I was amazed by how much this withdrawal warped everything about me, and by how easy it was for me to forget simple social behavior. It was almost like I was a completely different person.
  - andywood 12y ago
    Yes. Isolation can be very damaging, and he seems to be aware of this. And for some people, sometimes, it really can be something that 'just happens' as relationships wax and wane, and not a conscious choice.
andywood 12y ago
I am willing to 'out' myself as a human being who has struggled with serious mental illness my whole life, if there's a chance it could help this person. I have also had a long and prosperous career, including 5 years as a senior engineer and lead at Microsoft. These two things are very nearly orthogonal. I.e. my medical history has very little to do with my employment history. But being compassionate does not require you to analyze this person's merits. The only thing to 'analyze' is that he begged you for help. Also, please remember the hackers, family, and friends we have lost to suicide. People say "I wish we'd known. Maybe we could have helped." Well, you know; and there is a chance you could help. http://www.paypal.com http://www.paypal.com
- JasonFruit 12y ago
  As a person who has struggled with the same, I disagree. Compassion and "help" from strangers would have helped me very little — might even have harmed me. The compassion of my family and friends, their encouragement, honesty, and support, helped me beyond measure. I don't think strangers on the internet can fill that rôle.
  - Ryel 12y ago
    It's a very fine line that is impossible to define for anything other than a machine. Help from anonymous strangers can save lives. The flip side is that the potential for harm is greater than the aid of a professional or friend. It's so tightly coupled to the scenario (nature vs nurture) that efforts to argue are probably futile.
  - brudgers 12y ago
    Every person's story is unique. Xah's is here: http://xahlee.org/PageTwo_dir/Personal_dir/xah.html http://xahlee.org/PageTwo_dir/Personal_dir/xah.html There doesn't seem to have been a deep bench for his support team for a very long time, if ever. When I went to school in Gainesville, there was a saying: No matter how weird you are, there are a bunch of people who are weirder. The internet is that at scale. Thirty years ago, Xah would probably not have known people who he could identify with or that anyone identifies with him. The internet gets some people out of their isolation. It lets them talk about things that they find interesting or that matter. I don't talk programming languages with the locals. The appropriate topics are children, church, and Auburn football - which runs from National Signing Day in February to the BCS in January.
itsameta4 12y ago
Go. On. Welfare. Jesus.
fharper1961 12y ago
Am I the only one who thinks that the IRS should not be able to make someone who is mentally fragile homeless, just because he hasn't filed his taxes? It seems very inhumane to me.
octopus 12y ago
Best thing someone can do for this guy is to help him fill his taxes declaration retroactively and create a fund for him to write an Emacs book for e.g. Seems quite competent writing about Emacs, so it should be right on his alley. Maybe someone from Apress, Pragmatic or Packt Publishing can contact him about an Emacs book.
stefap2 12y ago
"well, i can only say i procrastinate" No there is my motivation to end the lunch break earlier.
roghummal 12y ago
Someone get this man some vim, stat.
BadassFractal 12y ago
The problem with someone like Xah is that you don't quite know what you're getting yourself into. Why has he not worked for a decade, and what reassurances are there that he will be able to be productive? There's no chain of trust that would prove that you're not hiring some kind of a ticking timebomb. There's no proof that he's up to speed with any tech since the 90s. There's no proof that he'd not be potentially very quirky and difficult to work with in a team environment. It's a very difficult position to be hired from, and it mostly has to do with the fact that he "let himself go" for a long time. If you have the option between hiring someone good and "someone potentially good, but also very unpredictable, high-risk and likely to be a long-term project", you'd go with the former every single time, it's a no-brainer.
ThinkBeat 12y ago
Standing as the precipice about to lose your home, your possession and things you have tried to hold on to is an extremely traumatic affair. Its very hard for someone honest and hard working in our world to admit to having problems and asking for help from the general population. He has done good things, and he is a fellow human, who needs help. Leave it at that. Who cares if he has upset some people on usenet. You think its some kinda karma? Wut? Troll the net, lose your house? If there are trolls on the net that should be taken care of it is assholes to humiliate and denigrate a man in his hour of need, when he is down and humiliated. That takes a lot more of an asshole than having spirited discussions regarding technical topics on usenet.
ww520 12y ago
It's saddening to see fellow hackers falling on hard time. I'm going to Palo Alto next week. I'll swing by to Mt View to see what I can help out.
clutterjoe 12y ago
Initially I typed some snark into this textarea, but thought better before I clicked submit. It's troubling to see a human in pain and even more so to derive joy or a false sense of righteousness from it. I'm not sure the help he wants is the help he needs, but I hope he finds his way out of that dark place.
galfarragem 12y ago
I think the biggest help we can give him is to redesign his website: very few people (without knowing his struggling situation) would ever pay for the content. His website content is pure gold but looks like crap..

363 points by craftsman 12y ago

cognivore 12y ago

Is there context here I'm missing? The screen shot with the legal fee leads me to believe so, but I can't sort it.

qwpo 12y ago
He mentions the IRS pulling money from his account, I think that's what the legal fee stuff in the bank account screenshot is about.
akuchling 12y ago
Lee is a noted Internet crank, very sure he's completely brilliant and everyone else is a moron. I remember his flaming about the quality of the Python documentation, e.g. https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2005-April/310515.html https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2005-April/310...
- bigiain 12y ago
  Reading his name brought back memories of him trolling on comp.lang.perl.misc - that's gotta be 15+ years ago now...
- mansr 12y ago
  He used to be trolling all over Usenet. There's a good chance he's made a very bad impression on just about anyone now in a position to hire him.
  - Grue3 12y ago
    Yeah, I remember him trolling in the Lisp newsgroup, which makes it hard for me to take his Emacs advice seriously.
  - isxek 12y ago
    Speaking of which: https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2005-April/355413.html https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2005-April/355...
- Bootvis 12y ago
  I love Python but I have to admit: the Python regex docs don't let you get stuff done quickly.
- bluefinity 12y ago
  Yeah, I have a feeling he might have burned a few bridges. https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2005-April/355413.html https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2005-April/355...
  - raverbashing 12y ago
    After reading his original post (of unnecessary expletives and excessive nitpicking) can't say I feel sorry for him
    - CatMtKing 12y ago
      http://xahlee.info/perl-python/xlali_skami_cukta.html http://xahlee.info/perl-python/xlali_skami_cukta.html Well, I think his criticisms are pretty well-founded. He just doesn't say it in a way you would enjoy.
      - raverbashing 12y ago
        True, in this text there's a lot of things I agree, however, for example > If you are accustomed to Perl's semantics, the search operation is what you're looking for. > Its mentioning of Perl is irrelevant, since the majority reading that page will not have expertise with Perl regex. Are you sure? I assume a lot of python users (and the docs he's critiquing are not the latest, and may have some "old stuff") used Perl first. Perl users would be familiar with Regexes, so this is a useful piece of info Or, praising an example as good for a Python tutorial that uses the format def okaydokey(self): return "okaydokey" which is not recommended by PEP-8
    - azernik 12y ago
      Yeah, I can't either. But he does seem to have an eye for (un)readable documentation - the things he's criticizing are completely useless for a new reader. The invective needs to seriously get toned down, though.
  - cognivore 12y ago
    Oh, thanks, that clears it up. It's kind of ironic that after dumping all over the intarwebs he's now trying to rely on the good graces of the intarwebs. I imagine there's enough people out there it'll work at least a little.
- danso 12y ago
  Holy shit I've been on HN too long...I've forgotten what real Internet flamewars/trolling was like.
- laichzeit0 12y ago
  Not that it was a particularly well written "critque" of the documentation, but I've felt similar frustrations when tyring to work through the NodeJS documentation. Generally when you're used to something that's several orders of magnitude better, e.g. Java docs and you're then forced to work with turds after that it takes some getting used to. Sometimes you never get used to it. Come to think of it.
  - akuchling 12y ago
    Yes, a few good points were buried in that post, like "examples are good" and "re.M isn't, strictly speaking, a variable". In the past I've made corrections based on Lee's suggestions, but when good points are surrounded by arrogance and profanity, it's not surprising people stop listening.
- stuaxo 12y ago
  Heh, he is right about the documentation - but his style is indeed cranky.
- judah 12y ago
  From his complaints: "Fuck the mother fucking coders in the IT industry." Looks like he received the very thing he wished on others. "i don't have friends because i live like platonic monk hermit for last decade" This guy clearly needs some people skills.

moistgorilla 12y ago

Props for asking for help.

quizzas 12y ago

A cautionary tale about not having the requisite "minimum viable" social skills. A person with no STEM skills but above average social skills will almost always have a job (sales, management, con man) the reverse is a more difficult proposition.

phkahler 12y ago

So you claim to be a decent programmer, but haven't been working a traditional job in years because why? You claim to be smart but don't know the value of maintaining a basic financial safety net. It won't be hard to bail you out, but this should not be happening in the first place. Let it be a lesson to others. Or is this just a fake?

KJasper 12y ago
The problem lies here: "well, i can only say i procrastinate"
nnq 12y ago
It's obvious the guy needs some help to help him "pull out". Whether it's a friend, a psychologist, a psychiatrist or a "mystical" experience, he needs something. There's no point criticizing him, it's obvious nobody would hire him until he "pulls himself out of the hole". But if you live near him and have some spare time / expertise / willingness to help, be a decent human being and help him get to someone that could help or hire him. Most of are are not as "autonomous" as we think we are, and in unfavorable circumstances, we can all fall off the tracks. And get over the "but don't know the value of maintaining a basic financial safety net"... it's obvious that he already lost the "social safety net" of friends that could have told him this and probably a "psychological balance safety net" too, so it's a bit too late to be any point in telling him this...
- throwaway_122 12y ago
  Realistically, what's the best kind of support he should be seeking right now? His linkedin profile doesn't say or at least I couldn't see his job profile. I would imagine it is going to be hard for him to get a job as a coder (with his reputation and all). Even if he does manage to raise $1600, that only helps him extend his current situation until next month. He said he's been living in some sort of isoloation ("platonic hermit monk") for the past decade. Maybe a job in a different field may help him give a different perspective from the one he's had for the past decade? What does one do if they become homeless in the Bay Area?
12y ago

bestest 12y ago

I simply can't resist it, but alas, see what will happen to you if you code in emacs! On the serious note though, he did admit he enjoys procrastinating. Why would I help someone who never had and still does not have any motivation?

da4c30ff 12y ago
Solidarity
dfc 12y ago
If you "simply cant resist" making a joke when another human is in the midst of a terrible situation you are a horrible person.
- svisser 12y ago
  Terrible but self-inflicted?
  - dfc 12y ago
    I know that I am not perfect and have certainly made poor decisions in my life. But if you feel that being compassionate is not appropriate in this situation at the very least OP could stay quiet and not make jokes about another person's suffering.
    - bestest 12y ago
      Down-vote me all you can, but OP's situation is most definitely self inflicted. It's the same with drug addicts. They can't help it. You can be compassionate with them, but it won't help them. What they need is a kick in their arse to fling them out of their comfort zone and embrace the big changes. Hopefully, OP's new job shall open his eyes and guide him in the right direction. He does not seem to be handicapped neither mentally nor physically -- and there are millions of people in much more need than such a victim of procrastination. Don't fret, OP'll be fine.

danso 12y ago

Almost sent the OP money through PayPal, but I saw this at the bottom of the post: > i won't actually be able to draw money from paypal, due to bank/IRS problem. Which is confusing because in a few lines above, this is written: > if you can help, paypal to xah@xahlee.org Can someone who knows the OP provide more context to all of this?

DennisP 12y ago
Sounds like a case for bitcoin.
- dkersten 12y ago
  How's he going to buy his noodles with bitcoin?
  - nawitus 12y ago
    http://fukuronoodlebar.com/bitcoin/ http://fukuronoodlebar.com/bitcoin/
    - jnettome 12y ago
      $80
  - DennisP 12y ago
    If nothing else, trade for other currencies on localbitcoin.
rando289 12y ago
I don't know if he updated the page since you read it, but it says he would prefer a check sent to him or 2 professor associates of his. I'm sure he will be able to use the money on paypal too and he is open to donations using it.

wfjackson 12y ago

Edit: He seems to have a lot of interest and worked a lot on good documentation, which is the bane of the typical OSS project. Why doesn't Red Hat/Google etc. throw some money at him to write docs for underdocumented OSS stuff? Sounds like win win for all. It's hard to find really smart developers that are interested in writing documentation.[End edit] If you don't really know him, his LinkedIn profile shows more details about his work. http://www.linkedin.com/in/xahlee http://www.linkedin.com/in/xahlee Xah Lee's Summary Full stack web site development. Heavy backend experience + unix sys adimn. Seek startupish, small team engineers environment. Accomplishment highlights: • Autodidact. High school dropout. No degree. • Taught graduate math students at National Center for Theoretical Sciences, Taiwan. • Invited speaker to Geometry And Visualization workshop, Tokyo Metropolitan University. • Work cited in US Patent. • Well-known open source contributor in emacs and LISP communities. • Expert in: JavaScript, Perl, Python, PHP, Emacs Lisp, Mathematica, MyLinux, SQL, Second Life Linden Scripting Language. Each with at least ten thousand lines of code. (working knowledge Java) Specialties: • Design, code, entire system. Understand language, protocols, raw. Do not depends on frameworks/libs when unnecessary. Portforlio: • Xah's JavaScript Tutorial 〔 http://xahlee.info/js/js.html http://xahlee.info/js/js.html 〕 • Xah's {Python, Perl, Ruby} Tutorial 〔 http://xahlee.info/perl-python/index.html http://xahlee.info/perl-python/index.html 〕 • Xah Emacs Lisp Tutorial 〔 http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/elisp.html http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/elisp.html 〕 • Xah's Java Tutorial 〔 http://xahlee.info/java-a-day/java.html http://xahlee.info/java-a-day/java.html 〕 • Xah Linux Tutorial 〔 http://xahlee.info/linux/linux_index.html http://xahlee.info/linux/linux_index.html 〕 • Xah's HTML5 Tutorial 〔 http://xahlee.info/js/index.html http://xahlee.info/js/index.html 〕 • Xah's CSS53 Tutorial 〔 http://xahlee.info/js/css_index.html http://xahlee.info/js/css_index.html 〕 • Programing Language Design 〔 http://xahlee.info/comp/comp_lang.html http://xahlee.info/comp/comp_lang.html 〕 Xah Lee's Experience Author and Webmaster XahLee.info January 2007 – Present (7 years 5 months) San Francisco Bay Area Creator and author of award-winning website http://xahlee.info/ http://xahlee.info/ , since 1997. • 8 thousand visitors per day. 240 thousand visitors per month. • 5 thousand HTML pages • Frequently cited in academic journals as well as online sites such as StackOverflow, Hacker News, Reddit, Wikipedia. Also cited by Microsoft TypeScript publication. (see list of citations below.) Published more than 50 software. Have a look at • Xah's JavaScript Tutorial 〔 http://xahlee.info/js/js.html http://xahlee.info/js/js.html 〕 • Xah's {Python, Perl, Ruby} Tutorial 〔 http://xahlee.info/perl-python/index.html http://xahlee.info/perl-python/index.html 〕 • Xah Emacs Lisp Tutorial 〔 http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/elisp.html http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/elisp.html 〕 • Xah's Java Tutorial 〔 http://xahlee.info/java-a-day/java.html http://xahlee.info/java-a-day/java.html 〕 • Xah Linux Tutorial 〔 http://xahlee.info/linux/linux_index.html http://xahlee.info/linux/linux_index.html 〕 • Programing Language Design 〔 http://xahlee.info/comp/comp_lang.html http://xahlee.info/comp/comp_lang.html 〕 Xah Lee's Projects Programming Tutorial: Python June 2006 to Present Team Members: Xah Lee

driverdan 12y ago

> why i didn't seek job all these years? well, i can only say i procrastinate and is ok living on a dime. Why would anyone give this guy money? It sounds like his money woes are all his fault. He's just begging online rather than begging in the street.

sanxiyn 12y ago
Well one thing he is doing is soliciting donation for his Emacs Tutorial, which he provides for free on his website. I don't think that is begging, and think it is entirely appropriate. You won't care about that if you didn't read his Emacs Tutorial. But if you did, consider donating.
leoc 12y ago
Don't the poor and those in hardship have the right to beg? Besides, as sanxiyn said, he does have something to offer in return.

yung_ether 12y ago

Who would hire a 45 year old programmer? Certainly good as dead. Have fun at the laundry.

digitalzombie 12y ago
> Who would hire a 45 year old programmer? Certainly good as dead. Have fun at the laundry. That's... age discrimination. This is illegal in California. He could get hire if he can past interviews or have notable projects.
- pistle 12y ago
  But difficult, if not impossible, to prove and costly to try to attack. The age difference is often not even really a conscious thing. It is expressed in "cultural fit" by most young interviewers. Older devs simply are detached from core pieces of younger culture. Whether that's music, integration into workplace rhythms, lanugage, etc. It's important to specialize some, get broad technically (don't only know everything COBOL), and to force yourself to at least understand the hot new things enough to be able to speak FROM EXPERIENCE about why you want said hot new thing off your lawn... but still be willing to play along. If you need to work for someone else, you need to balance your tech-righteousness with someone else's, often youthfully naive, ego.
  - vidarh 12y ago
    > The age difference is often not even really a conscious thing. It can even be as simple as a work schedule that is hard to meet for anyone with children. E.g. shifting the start and end of the work day one hour later can be enough to make childcare a nightmare to secure many places.
crashandburn4 12y ago
Wow... I don't even have words. I get that your comment is supposed to be dark humour but that's pretty heartless, this guys got actual troubles.
evo_9 12y ago

deadghost 12y ago

I've come across his blog multiple times when I started with emacs and he seems like a cool guy(anyone that can spoon raw oatmeal into his mouth like it's the greatest thing ever is cool by my book). It's great he's asking for help instead of showing up on the front page as another dead hacker.

HeyLaughingBoy 12y ago
Totally OT, but when I was a kid, raw oatmeal and brown sugar was one of my favorite treats.I hated it cooked. Even now, I still like raw oats right off the stalk, though it's a lot of work for such small reward.
andywood 12y ago
Please remember that line. We all forget so quickly.

rando289 12y ago

Xah's website has been an amazing resource for emacs users, me included. I really hope someone can help him out a bit.

throwaway283719 12y ago

He could start by rewriting his resume. This in particular stands out - Accomplishment highlights: * Autodidact. High school dropout. No degree. To almost any employer, that is not an accomplishment, much less a highlight! If you're a high school dropout who is very accomplished since then, just silently drop any mention of your education from your resume. Everyone will assume that you left it off because it's irrelevant given all your experience since then. If the first paragraph of your resume calls attention to the fact that you didn't even graduate high school, it sets a bad tone for the rest. Many people will throw your resume away without reading further.

elliottcarlson 12y ago
Agreed - as someone who dropped out/lacking a degree, I have no mention of education on my resume and let my long work history present me the way I want to be seen. Early on in my career it held me back a little - at least to the point that I had to explain why I dropped out (and I believe I have a decent justification), but in the last 10 years it hasn't even come up.
jgrahamc 12y ago
Sad. A couple of months ago at the Go London User Group a young guy came up to me and told me he didn't have a degree, was totally self taught, and wanted to know if it was even worth him applying to CloudFlare. I told him to apply. He started last Monday. I can only speak for CloudFlare, but educational background is _a component_ of a candidate. But it's only _a component_, it's not everything. We're interested in what people know and what they can do. I honestly look more at people's personalities, employment history and Github than what college degree they have.
- throwaway283719 12y ago
  I'm glad that CloudFlare has a sensible approach to hiring, but sadly I think they will be the exception, rather than the rule.
  - iloveponies 12y ago

terhechte 12y ago

Xah, if you're reading this: Based on the comments on your page it is not clear whether you can or can't accept money via Paypal. Your Emacs resources have always been very helpful to me. I'd be willing to send you some money. Do you happen to have a Bitcoin address that I could send something to?

slackpad 12y ago
He's got his PayPal email address listed first thing under How to Help.
IanKelling 12y ago
I just spoke to Xah on the phone. He does want people to donate to his paypal address. He can transfer it to someone to cash it out if needed. He will be making further updates on his site, probably later today to be clear about that. He will be looking into bitcoin also. So feel free to donate, I think at least his contributions to emacs documentation make it worthwhile.
- IanKelling 12y ago
  And he has now updated the post to clarify about paypal.
- zymhan 12y ago
  Can't he get a Paypal debit card for free, so that he can spend the money directly from the account?
  - rando289 12y ago
    Yes, he can. Some people don't know about that yet.

thegeomaster 12y ago

I don't think anyone should judge him based on the small amount of information available. I understand that his situation is mostly his fault, but there may be other things at play. Why be so fast to condemn someone when an unfortunate sequence of events could've put some of us into a similar situation? I'm not defending Xah Lee's irresponsibility nor I am defending people who condemn him, I just want to say that we are all imperfect, after all, and these kinds of things can and do happen because of that fact.

mansr 12y ago
He spent decades trolling everyone and everything on Usenet and mailing lists. He had it coming.
- thegeomaster 12y ago
  Some more info? Didn't catch that.
- hyperpape 12y ago
  I hope that the world will have more mercy on you than you give. Xah has been a pain in the ass for a lot of people, but I do not wish anyone to be left without healthcare or homeless, regardless of what they have done. Even criminals get locked up and fed. Opinions like yours simply have no place anywhere.
  - nilsimsa 12y ago
    What are you doing to help him?
- marincounty 12y ago
  Really dude? Had it coming? Spend next Sunday in church. I think his unemployment might have to do more with his age? I know to many unemployed programmers over 45 years of age. Two are literally homeless. Time goes by quick--just when you think you will always be in demand; you get that Friday meeting. You just might feel this guys agony in a few years, but you sound like a spolied brat--who's family will always be there to pay the rent.

peterwwillis 12y ago

He needs to find a social services office that can help him get organized and take care of his personal responsibilities. It's completely his fault that he's in this mess, but he probably has some kind of personal/mental health problem that requires assistance. The one thing nobody should do is simply send him money or give him a job, since there's nothing on this page that indicates he won't go back to exactly the same thing he's been doing for the past 10 years. (Also, 1600 rent? what the fucking fuck? dude needs to go sleep in a shelter and use that money to get a thrift store interview suit and pay off his bills)

hadoukenio 12y ago
It's sad. Almost everyone (including people on that Python mailing list thread below) has jumped on him calling him a troll while (not to their own fault) missing that this guy has mental health issues. He needs professional help not money.
- DanBC 12y ago
  Some people are just assholes and do not have mental health problems. Unless you're widening the definition for MH problem to include things like anger or Asperger's syndrome.
  - epsylon 12y ago
    Being an asshole is a mental problem.
    - peterwwillis 12y ago
      It can also be an occupation, such as working for the government, or the Free Software Foundation.
  - ForHackernews 12y ago
    Those people could certainly benefit from working with a counselor. There's a wide range of "personality disorders" that are maybe not "mental health problems" requiring medication, but are still issues that take external help to solve.

partisan 12y ago

I can empathize and I feel bad for anyone in what feels like a helpless and hopeless situation. I sometimes feel like I am there as well despite having "enough" money for a rainy season or two. Some people need to hit rock bottom to even begin to understand that there is light at the end of the tunnel. Manual labor, however humiliating and seemingly beneath him, may give him the proper motivation he seems to be lacking.

DanielStraight 12y ago
I think this explains the vastly different reactions to the author's post. His mental state, I can easily empathize with. So if I focus on that, my reply will be very positive. But at the same time, he is calling the every day experience of something like 1/3 of Americans "as good as dead", which is frankly insulting to those who do it their whole lives and even support families doing it. Having to do manual labor for minimum wage is not as good as dead, it is an obstacle. And it is an obstacle that many people have overcome. I wish the author nothing but the best, but his ability to improve his situation is going to depend on his ability to change his attitude regarding work and what he needs to live. I hope he does. I hope he finds something or someone that will push him in the right direction. But that's what he needs, not a monetary handout. Working as a dish washer isn't going to kill him. It hasn't killed the thousands of other people doing it, some of whom are even happy about their lives and hopeful about the future.
- vezzy-fnord 12y ago
  I don't think you read the whole thing. Among minimum wage labor, he also mentioned impending homelessness, lack of private transportation (which, at least in the USA, is a huge impediment) and a total of $23 in life savings, which is pretty bad, even for a lot of people in rough situations. I don't know if he's "as good as dead", but he's in a hard place, certainly. More than you're giving him credit for.
  - DanielStraight 12y ago
    I did read the whole thing, several times. His situation sucks, I'm not denying that. But why would his likelihood of homelessness be any greater than anyone else working minimum wage? Can he not do what everyone else with a shitty job does and get a shitty apartment with a bunch of roommates for a few hundred a month? Can he not get food stamps like everyone else with minimal income? I'm not trying to criticize his current feeling of hopelessness. I'm just saying that his situation isn't, in fact, hopeless and that the only way it's ever going to get any better is if he realizes that it isn't hopeless and starts working his ass off to make it better. And I'm not criticizing him for not having already come to that realization either. It's hard. It takes times. It probably takes help from others who have been there. But it is the only way forward. It's wrong to be unsympathetic to his plight, but I think it's just as wrong to withhold the truth that many other people have faced the same situation and gotten through it by persistently working their asses off until things got better. He can do this. Anyone reading this in a similar situation, you can do this. It will suck. There's no point in being coy about that. But if you do what it takes to keep working, and work and save smartly, you can get through it. Don't give up hope.

graycat 12y ago

There may be some government and/or privately funded social services in the area that could help him, e.g., emergency rent money, housing, food, counseling. His Web site with 240 K visitors a month, with some ads, should be enough to help him significantly.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

nkozyra 12y ago

I don't know that this is necessarily a good idea when the IRS has a lock on your account(s), either: >> better, send your check to: [snip]

seansoutpost 12y ago

Xah,It really sounds like you need a bitcoin address. Coinbase.com (YC S12) is a great place to start. Once you have some coins, you will find no shortage of people in the bay area willing to buy them off of you. I would even be willing to run a btc fundraiser on your behalf. I don't have a lot of rep on here, but it's pretty solid in the bitcoin space. Google Jason King Bitcoin or Sean's Outpost Best of luck, man. Stay strong.

SandB0x 12y ago
> Xah,It really sounds like you need a bitcoin address. Only on Hacker News. This guy needs professional support for his mental health issues, food to eat and help in finding a steady job.

louhike 12y ago

At the bottom of the page: "if you can help, paypal to xah@xahlee.org buy my tutorial: Buy Xah Emacs Tutorial (http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/buy_xah_emacs_tutorial.html http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/buy_xah_emacs_tutorial.html) Xah's JavaScript Tutorial (http://xahlee.info/js/js.html http://xahlee.info/js/js.html) Xah's {Python, Perl, Ruby} Tutorial or buy my entire xahlee.info site content for $50. see ∑ Xah Code (http://xahlee.info/perl-python/index.html http://xahlee.info/perl-python/index.html) 〔☛ Xah Lee's Resume〕 or, send paypal to this my previous effort to something similar to a kickstart. https://pledgie.com/campaigns/19973 https://pledgie.com/campaigns/19973 i won't actually be able to draw money from paypal, due to bank/IRS problem. So better, send your check to: Huynh Kang at huynh.kang facebook (https://www.facebook.com/huynh.kang https://www.facebook.com/huynh.kang) or huynh-kang linkedin (http://www.linkedin.com/pub/huynh-kang/24/8b/535 http://www.linkedin.com/pub/huynh-kang/24/8b/535) professor Richard Palais, home page at University of California Irvine http://vmm.math.uci.edu/ http://vmm.math.uci.edu/, Wikipedia Richard Palais, richard-palais on linkedin"

kayyyl 12y ago

If you really think you can code, Fiverr (http://www.fiverr.com/ http://www.fiverr.com/) is the place you have to go. There're many little jobs for you. Do 5 per day, let's do it now mate.

mercer 12y ago

Cases like this, when the talented person in question is a geek who "doesn't interview well," always frustrate me. Most of my professional success is a result of social skills and a lot of experience with wildly different social environments and cultures. While I do work hard at being actually good at what I do (because that's just more fun!), I could get pretty far as a cruddy developer. And that just feels unfair, and frustrating. I do understand that social skills matter when you work for a company, in a team, but it often feels like they're way too important (evidence: incompetent people at top positions in companies who primarily excel at manipulation or are extremely socially skilled). Of course, there's a difference between a geek who just lacks social skills, and a geek who is just not a nice person and also lacks social skills to hide this (or lacks social skills because of this). I've met my share of those. But even then, it's hard to (fully) blame the person in question. I've met my fair share of arrogant, abrasive, unsympathetic, or misogynistic geeks who seem to have mostly become that as a reaction to having been bullied or ostracized. Often, it's self-defense or just inability, and quite frankly the main reason I didn't turn out that way was because I was in the right place at the right time, and I had wonderful peers who dragged me out of my isolation. It just sucks. And I wish I could fix that. I can't imagine how frustrating it must be to know that you are competent, or even well above average, and still not get the jobs that downright incompetent people seem to have no trouble getting. (I don't mean to justify 'bad' behavior, by the way, but to a degree understanding where it comes from allows me to still sympathize with, say, a racist.)

overgard 12y ago
I get what you're saying, but I also tend to think: if they're so smart, why not learn some social skills? It's not like being socially awkward has to be an innate thing; they're called social skills for a reason, you can learn them. Many people were once socially awkward, and then fixed it. It's not particularly fair, but social awkwardness does tend to send a signal about what people value. And what a socially awkward person clearly does not particularly value is time spent with other people. I'm not saying everyone needs to be a gregarious extrovert (I'm certainly not), but if I were looking to hire someone, I'd be a bit concerned if it was obvious that they had no real interest in anything that isn't directly within their bubble. It's not just "are they skilled" it's, are they actually going to fit in the company?

userbinator 12y ago

Did he just post a screenshot of his bank account with the session key visible in the URL!? (I know it's probably not too significant and there are other checks in place, but I found it rather ironic when the text right above it happens to be "I try to be VERY VERY careful".)

peterwwillis 12y ago
The majority of his debit acct # is also visible. But seeing as he hasn't been very careful with the rest of his life, why should his empty bank acct be any different?
- swalsh 12y ago
  Who's going to commit fraud for $22.53?
madaxe_again 12y ago
Actually, it's even better. He was browsing pr0n when taking that screenshot. Google those imgur filenames in the downloads bar.... facepalm
- gebe 12y ago
  I don't think that bothers him. He has discussed his views and tastes regarding pornography (with explicit examples) before on his site. He also has a travellog from Las Vegas that includes a visit to a prostitute. He's quite a character and his site includes posts about everything from math and tech to the stuff I mentioned above.
  - userbinator 12y ago
    That it doesn't bother him is not the problem; that it may bother his potential employers is. When looking at his site from the point of view of someone who could be interested in hiring him, it certainly leaves a strong impression - but unfortunately, not a positive one.
- 12y ago

demoncore 12y ago

emacs'll do that to you.

cenazoic 12y ago

Sacha Chua recently did one of her "Emacs Chats" with Xah Lee: http://sachachua.com/blog/category/podcast/emacs-chat-podcast/#post-27224 http://sachachua.com/blog/category/podcast/emacs-chat-podcas...

logfromblammo 12y ago

Sounds like the guy needs a friend more than he needs a job.

sanxiyn 12y ago
He has friends. Read the post again.
- logfromblammo 12y ago
  I read it again. What you may not realize is that people with many friends and people with few or none have different meanings for that word. He may simply be describing the two people that would actually notice if he vanished from the face of the planet as his friends because that is the closest thing he has to one. It's fine to wash dishes if you need money, but if he ever wants a better life for himself, putting up with the annoyances of people who are not like you is a skill that must be both learned and practiced. Introverts, especially extreme loner hermits, have to sacrifice some of their essential spiritual essence to the vampiric extroverts occasionally, in order to have a better quality of being left the hell alone the rest of the time. A guy like this really needs a mediator to introduce him to more outgoing types, let them have a taste, and then protect him before they scare him back into the shell. It's very unlikely he could do it alone.
- nicarus1984 12y ago
  > i don't have a car, and i don't have friends because i live like a platonic monk hermit for past decade. "i don't have friends" Literally, some [new] human contact may help him tremendously.

drstrangevibes 12y ago

Xah Lees contribution to the community is greater than the combined contribution of all of the people that question his resume, or site it as 'skimpy'

killnine 12y ago

http://www.sendameal.com http://www.sendameal.com

garretraziel 12y ago

This is mostly unfortunate. As an Emacs user, I have read a lot of his tutorials and they are very good, I will consider buying one of them (but I don't understand; does or doesn't he accept money through paypal?). On the side note, he should really edit that bank account screenshot. These downloaded images really looks like they were downloaded from imgur. And if you type those filenames into imgur...

drstrangevibes 12y ago

how many of you people that site Xah as irresponsible would be homeless in siz months if they lost their income? I'm a slightly older hacker and I've seen bubbles like this before, they dont always last and just because you are riding the wave at the moment doesnt give you the right to look down at someone who has made a few wrong turns. If half of you critics had found yourself in his proposition you wouldnt have the skills, resources, or courage to try fight you way out of it. Its shameful that you think your minor contribution in 1 or 2 companies gives you the right to look down on someone who has done so much for the community

pawelkomarnicki 12y ago

WTF? "why i didn't seek job all these years? well, i can only say i procrastinate and is ok living on a dime."

chaostheory 12y ago
my question is, if he's "procrastinating" why didn't he just rent a room instead of a whole apartment? Better yet why not move back to his parent's place? When I was single, I never rented an apartment on my own. I always had a roomate(s).

geetee 12y ago

I couldn't help but see what tqOSxqI.jpg is on imgur. NSFW

auganov 12y ago

Wow, that's pretty shocking. As an emacs user I'd often stumble upon his articles. Even bought an emacs autohotkey-mode from him. It's so strange to see a person you thought was this amazing genius that surely did well for himself struggle like that. Hope you take care of your problems Xah.

chj 12y ago

I read some of his emacs related posts before, not that pleasant to read, but can be very helpful.

BryanBigs 12y ago

I feel for him - he seems to suffering both mentally and physically. But I have a hard time believing he hasn't legally had to file his taxes for the past 10 years. At the very least, if he really has only had $1k in income (which isn't credible - he's showing $700 of income on that bank statement alone) he would have gotten a few hundo from the EITC - which when you only make $1k is a big deal. And admitting you didn't file for 10 years isn't going to help him going forward either. Hate to see someone in pain - but this really looks self-inflicted.

Globz 12y ago

From the python mailing list: Xah Lee wrote: > What does a programer who wants to use regex gets out from this piece of motherfking irrevalent drivel? > Any resume that ever crosses my desk that includes 'Xah Lee' anywhere in the name will be automatically trashed. -rbt at athop1.ath.vt.edu

fantomass 12y ago

If you look at Xah's website with the eyes of business owner it could be a problem that that it handles a lot of exotic stuff, that is almost never a subject in a small to medium IT companies, but is written and fostered with great passion and care. So there might be concerns if he would fit in to company with all its mundane day to day problems. I think I would be helpful if he could do an internship or some sort of a program, where he can prove his capabilities to do - "boring" stuff - follow orders of his boss - working teams Once this is approved, he might had better chances.

yiedyie 12y ago

I anything this story tells is how much hacker need to adapt to business as usual. So much for the power to change.

saalweachter 12y ago

Reading the blog/comments I don't think a development job is what he needs/wants. I think what he really needs is a patron. So why not Patreon? Some people find value in the content he creates, and his needs are modest. It is not implausible that enough people are willing to chip in to keep him going, and Patreon provides a way to do that.

rafekett 12y ago

Xah needs to seek help for his mental illness. Look at his posts on comp.lang.emacs for evidence. He's been spending all these years on $3 a day trying to figure out a more "ergonomic" keyboard for emacs, but many of his suggestions are really just based on what he wants and are less ergonomic than standard emacs. EDIT: comp.lang.emacs doesn't exist, it's been many years. gnu.emacs.BLAH

chaired 12y ago
Some find this type of labeling helpful. Some find it unhelpful. At any rate, we should probably tread carefully. People with mental illness need jobs as much as, if not more than, those who pass for normal. I know. I have suffered from serious mental issues for 18 years. In that same time, I have enjoyed a long, exciting, and storied career; and I know that my employers have been grateful.
- rafekett 12y ago
  My intention wasn't to label anyone. Xah has been a disruptive and counterproductive presence in the emacs community, but I think it's because he needs help he's not getting. He spent his time in poverty fighting flame wars on usenet -- he needs to get his priorities straight. I buy he's a smart guy who can get a lot done, but he's not employable in his current state, and I don't think the right solution is to give him money so he can continue to live like he does.
  - DanBC 12y ago
    "Diagnosing" people when you're not a doctor and when your only contact with that person is written stuff on the Internet is stigmatising. It keeps people with mental illness out of work (because employers illegally consider that person to be a riskier hire) and it does little to help the person being discussed who might just be an asshole rather than being someone with a diagnosable MH illness.

chaired 12y ago

1 ) Perhaps this could be the start of Xah Lee learning some social skills. If so, good on him. He'll go a lot further with them. 2 ) Surely someone in this community can offer him a job writing documentation, at the least? Think of it as charity if you must, but he will probably deliver good value, and he would probably be happy to work cheap, if you're into that sort of thing. 3 ) I will donate $, since that's what I can do from where I am.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

methehack 12y ago

I sent him $10.

arjn 12y ago

What about an Indiegogo campaign to help this guy out ?

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

jqm 12y ago

This kind of case is why I don't think guaranteed income will work. Some people won't even be able to manage that money. We have to find a way to insure people have the basics without money (in their hands anyway). The salvation army type/soup kitchen programs aren't it. No dignity, 5000 other guys (a significant percentage of which would slit your throat for a rock), an underlying "join the cult theme".... no, that environment doesn't make things better. Basic privacy and dignity are needs too. And if someone is going to become productive they need access to basic tools like a computer also. If people like Lee could forget about money and work on what they love I think the world would have more for it. Or else a lot more trolling. IDK... I think what we are seeing here is similar to heroin addiction or alcoholism. But this is an internet 24-7/ trolling rush/ porn addiction that makes it hard to live in the real world. I bet his isn't the only case either. I recommend a three month cold turkey session in the woods of Canada this summer. No net. Up at dawn chopping wood. Real face to face interaction most of the day. Fix this poor fellow right up and give him a new lease on life. I do feel for his case... in the same way someone who drinks a little more than they should might feel for homeless drunk passed out on the sidewalk.

jqm 12y ago
I don't mind down votes. At the same time I am curious how someone could feel significantly differently than the point of view I posted to down vote it. Does someone not believe an internet addiction is partly to blame for Lee's problems? That this isn't a disorder or there isn't a treatment? That his basic needs should not be met? That our social support service system doesn't need a pivot? What exactly is the argument?

Beanis 12y ago

I interviewed/phone screened Xah Lee about 2 years ago. I'd never heard of him, so I skimmed over his resume and checked out his site an hour or two before the call. I remember when I was looking at his site I was seeing various articles around math and programming, and then articles about things like "2 girls 1 cup". The breadth of articles completely threw me off. He seemed to have this unfocused interest in EVERYTHING. After looking over everything I could I had no idea how we'd be able to use him, but I was really interested in talking with him. I went into the call expecting a lot of tangents about various topics he was passionate about and thinking I'd constantly have to refocus the conversation. Instead the conversation was pretty boring and not really going anywhere. He had breadth, but the depth was not there. At least not for the things I brought up. I couldn't understand how someone who seemed to be interested in everything could have no real interest in anything. For the last couple of minutes we talked about his site, and how he maintains/updates it. He finally seemed to light up, and we hit on something he was really interested in talking about. The basics of the site looked like it was just a couple of scripts, a lot of static text files and some emacs. The setup might have been impressive in the mid-to-early 90's, but it wasn't relevant to anything we would have wanted/needed. The call lasted maybe 20 minutes, and then we wrapped it up. Every topic, other than talking about his site, was a dead-end. My internal feedback at the end was: "No! Maybe... if we were trying to hire encyclopedia writers". I think his main problem with interviews is that his real-life personality doesn't even come close to his online personality. If I would have gone in expecting the standard slightly-awkward developer interview, things might have gone better. I still would have said no, but it would have been a weaker no.

jpwgarrison 12y ago
>"...internal feedback..." Not so internal anymore! Don't get me wrong, I read your comment with interest, but then was struck with how we are talking about him as if he _was_ dead. Apparently he likes his life to be public but actual job interviews somehow strike me as private.
- Beanis 12y ago
  You're right. I was thinking about it for a while and have seen his name show up other times where I've thought about commenting and haven't. Normally I wouldn't say anything, and it would have stayed personal and private. I hovered over the submit buttton for a few minutes and then even after I submitted I was hovering over the delete link for a few minutes. I wanted to give some perspective on what "not interviewing well" means in this case. It seemed as if a lot of comments were assuming age discrimination and issues with mental illness among other things. I wouldn't doubt that is the case sometimes, but from my experience that wasn't the case. There were other issues. I'm sure most people who interview him run into the same issues. I think his biggest interviewing problem is that he can't live up to the expectations others will expect from a one-man encyclopedia.

brudgers 12y ago

Writing is thinking and one person's philosophical pondering can be another's trolling, e.g. this post. Sure trolling is sometimes just being an asshat. But it's also a way of creating diversity. An attempt to deprogram members of a cargo cult. It can be fighting group think and ideological tribalism. I've come to think about trolling as often being an expression of a desire to write - it's very essence is writing something that didn't need to be written and doing so in a way that's tailored to one's audience. Just as sarcasm can be a low form of wit, trolling can be a low form of literature. If everyone who trolled the Usenet or a mailing list or an online forum was condemned for it, who would be left and would anyone want to read what they had to say. Xah Lee is a person whose particular genius doesn't fit well into a prefabricated category. But his website expresses a genuine desire to help others by sharing what he knows - and what he knows, he knows really well. There but for the grace of god, go I.

chaired 12y ago
Thank you so much for writing this.
Bahamut 12y ago
You can do every one of these things without trolling. If trolling is used for such a purpose, it often has the effect of fostering groupthink - you often see it in places like 4chan. Trolling when used for these purposes is often used as a substitute for well-reasoned/articulate point, and has the irresponsible effect of causing grief when it could be pre-empted by simple actions. To not take those actions is often an indication of callousness. Note: I claim no knowledge on Xah's case, and am not commenting on it.
- brudgers 12y ago
  I apologize for not being more articulate. I'm not suggesting that there are not better forms of writing than trolling or that trolling is something to encourage. My point is psychological: a meaningful fraction of trolling behavior is driven by a desire to write. Writing something to which you respond at length gives me an opportunity to write a counter response. It gives me the opportunity to analyize your arguments and rebut them. In other words, it provides an opportunity to write just as presenting a reasoned and rational argument does...only on most of the internet even more so. Trolling is the primary form of entertainment on much of the internet. Outrageous flame wars sell popcorn to the peanut gallery. Some people enjoy watching opponents practice their craft in combat. That's not to say that that impulse to write can't be channeled to a more productive tone and more constructive ends. But the urge to write is what makes for great writing...or at least its possibility. Writing like an asshat just happens to be a path of least resistance. Sarcasm and meanness provide easy material. They prompt a reaction and getting feedback is how a writer can improve their craft and flaming and trolling are crafts - just somewhat destructive ones. All that trolling manifests itself in the quality of much of the material on Xah Lee's site. He's been writing for more than two decades.

muyuu 12y ago

What in the f*. I've been following this guy since a bit before Orkut/Tribe days when he had full hair (~2003?). He's been very inspirational. At first I thought he was a bit of a jerk and a troll (not the right place or time to elaborate on this, but well this was long ago so it doesn't matter) but when I saw him take on his education in his 30s I was quite impressed with what he achieved. I think this guy is top drawer and seems hard working. I have no idea what happened to him, although I do guess his peculiar character has a lot to do with it.

mercer 12y ago
It could perhaps be the effects of isolation (which, as recent submissions and discussions here make evident, can have a huge effect on a person). I've had periods in my life where I withdrew from others, and every time I recovered, I was amazed by how much this withdrawal warped everything about me, and by how easy it was for me to forget simple social behavior. It was almost like I was a completely different person.
- andywood 12y ago
  Yes. Isolation can be very damaging, and he seems to be aware of this. And for some people, sometimes, it really can be something that 'just happens' as relationships wax and wane, and not a conscious choice.

andywood 12y ago

I am willing to 'out' myself as a human being who has struggled with serious mental illness my whole life, if there's a chance it could help this person. I have also had a long and prosperous career, including 5 years as a senior engineer and lead at Microsoft. These two things are very nearly orthogonal. I.e. my medical history has very little to do with my employment history. But being compassionate does not require you to analyze this person's merits. The only thing to 'analyze' is that he begged you for help. Also, please remember the hackers, family, and friends we have lost to suicide. People say "I wish we'd known. Maybe we could have helped." Well, you know; and there is a chance you could help. http://www.paypal.com http://www.paypal.com

JasonFruit 12y ago
As a person who has struggled with the same, I disagree. Compassion and "help" from strangers would have helped me very little — might even have harmed me. The compassion of my family and friends, their encouragement, honesty, and support, helped me beyond measure. I don't think strangers on the internet can fill that rôle.
- Ryel 12y ago
  It's a very fine line that is impossible to define for anything other than a machine. Help from anonymous strangers can save lives. The flip side is that the potential for harm is greater than the aid of a professional or friend. It's so tightly coupled to the scenario (nature vs nurture) that efforts to argue are probably futile.
- brudgers 12y ago
  Every person's story is unique. Xah's is here: http://xahlee.org/PageTwo_dir/Personal_dir/xah.html http://xahlee.org/PageTwo_dir/Personal_dir/xah.html There doesn't seem to have been a deep bench for his support team for a very long time, if ever. When I went to school in Gainesville, there was a saying: No matter how weird you are, there are a bunch of people who are weirder. The internet is that at scale. Thirty years ago, Xah would probably not have known people who he could identify with or that anyone identifies with him. The internet gets some people out of their isolation. It lets them talk about things that they find interesting or that matter. I don't talk programming languages with the locals. The appropriate topics are children, church, and Auburn football - which runs from National Signing Day in February to the BCS in January.

itsameta4 12y ago

Go. On. Welfare. Jesus.

fharper1961 12y ago

Am I the only one who thinks that the IRS should not be able to make someone who is mentally fragile homeless, just because he hasn't filed his taxes? It seems very inhumane to me.

octopus 12y ago

Best thing someone can do for this guy is to help him fill his taxes declaration retroactively and create a fund for him to write an Emacs book for e.g. Seems quite competent writing about Emacs, so it should be right on his alley. Maybe someone from Apress, Pragmatic or Packt Publishing can contact him about an Emacs book.

stefap2 12y ago

"well, i can only say i procrastinate" No there is my motivation to end the lunch break earlier.

roghummal 12y ago

Someone get this man some vim, stat.

BadassFractal 12y ago

The problem with someone like Xah is that you don't quite know what you're getting yourself into. Why has he not worked for a decade, and what reassurances are there that he will be able to be productive? There's no chain of trust that would prove that you're not hiring some kind of a ticking timebomb. There's no proof that he's up to speed with any tech since the 90s. There's no proof that he'd not be potentially very quirky and difficult to work with in a team environment. It's a very difficult position to be hired from, and it mostly has to do with the fact that he "let himself go" for a long time. If you have the option between hiring someone good and "someone potentially good, but also very unpredictable, high-risk and likely to be a long-term project", you'd go with the former every single time, it's a no-brainer.

ThinkBeat 12y ago

Standing as the precipice about to lose your home, your possession and things you have tried to hold on to is an extremely traumatic affair. Its very hard for someone honest and hard working in our world to admit to having problems and asking for help from the general population. He has done good things, and he is a fellow human, who needs help. Leave it at that. Who cares if he has upset some people on usenet. You think its some kinda karma? Wut? Troll the net, lose your house? If there are trolls on the net that should be taken care of it is assholes to humiliate and denigrate a man in his hour of need, when he is down and humiliated. That takes a lot more of an asshole than having spirited discussions regarding technical topics on usenet.

ww520 12y ago

It's saddening to see fellow hackers falling on hard time. I'm going to Palo Alto next week. I'll swing by to Mt View to see what I can help out.

clutterjoe 12y ago

Initially I typed some snark into this textarea, but thought better before I clicked submit. It's troubling to see a human in pain and even more so to derive joy or a false sense of righteousness from it. I'm not sure the help he wants is the help he needs, but I hope he finds his way out of that dark place.

galfarragem 12y ago

I think the biggest help we can give him is to redesign his website: very few people (without knowing his struggling situation) would ever pay for the content. His website content is pure gold but looks like crap..