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> It's sad, but as a foreigner I don't see that In particular I find the constant harking back to "Well, we don't spy on US citizens, only everyone else." part

> It's sad, but as a foreigner I don't see that In particular I find the constant harking back to "Well, we don't spy on US citizens, only everyone else." particularly annoying. Like that's OK.

timknauf 12y ago
I've been constantly surprised about how little scrutiny that kind of statement has received in the media - American or otherwise. I thought it would've publicly raised more hackles here in New Zealand (but I guess we all ultimately just feel powerless in the face of such determined surveillance might).
- harkyns_castle 12y ago
  Same thing in Australia, its surprised me also it's not picked up on more. But after the likes of George Brandis' comments (essentially that Snowden was a crook yada yada), I'm starting to not be surprised. The other thing which I find depressing are comments along the lines of "Oh, everyone is doing it, its fine". I don't see that, I think its a damn scummy thing to be doing.
  - happyscrappy 12y ago
    It is almost as if Australians don't realize they are part of the problem.
MichaelGG 12y ago
If a national spy agency had a rule against spying on non-citizens, it would not be much of a spying agency, would it? Additionally, outside of specific treaties, why should one country have certain obligations to other countries' citizens?
- harkyns_castle 12y ago
  Quite right, it'd be a terrible spy agency with those restrictions. I have no issue with warranted investigations, or prosecuting people doing bad things. I'm arguing that broad, warrantless surveillance is a horrible, chilling thing to be doing. The fact that everyone is doing it doesn't make me feel better.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- claudius 12y ago
  Of course no country has such an obligation per se. But if your government constantly attacks my infrastructure, why oh why should I even consider paying a penny for your service? Given that many American companies still market to users outside the US, this nevertheless seems to be the overall expectation.
- sliverstorm 12y ago
  Let me get this straight... - we are a spy agency - we cannot spy on citizens - we cannot spy on non-citizens Best spy agency ever.
- goodcanadian 12y ago
  It is not about spying or not spying, it is about spying on legitimate targets. All countries (should) have obligations to basic human rights. If I were a head of state, I would expect the U.S. to attempt to spy on me (and I would expect my country to stop them). As an private individual, I very much have the same rights under the U.S. constitution as do U.S. citizens. It is not OK to violate my right to to be free from unreasonable search and seizure. They should have to get a warrant to spy on me, just as they (should) have to do for an American.
aestra 12y ago
>In particular I find the constant harking back to "Well, we don't spy on US citizens, only everyone else." particularly annoying. It is annoying, but there is a reason why it is being said. Laws (are supposed to) prohibit (more or less) the US spying on its own citizens without cause. It is written into the constitution (more or less). Foreigners don't have that protection under law. Whether that should be changed or not is a different question than are these programs legal under current laws.

> It's sad, but as a foreigner I don't see that In particular I find the constant harking back to "Well, we don't spy on US citizens, only everyone else." particularly annoying. Like that's OK.

timknauf 12y ago

I've been constantly surprised about how little scrutiny that kind of statement has received in the media - American or otherwise. I thought it would've publicly raised more hackles here in New Zealand (but I guess we all ultimately just feel powerless in the face of such determined surveillance might).

harkyns_castle 12y ago
Same thing in Australia, its surprised me also it's not picked up on more. But after the likes of George Brandis' comments (essentially that Snowden was a crook yada yada), I'm starting to not be surprised. The other thing which I find depressing are comments along the lines of "Oh, everyone is doing it, its fine". I don't see that, I think its a damn scummy thing to be doing.
- happyscrappy 12y ago
  It is almost as if Australians don't realize they are part of the problem.

MichaelGG 12y ago

If a national spy agency had a rule against spying on non-citizens, it would not be much of a spying agency, would it? Additionally, outside of specific treaties, why should one country have certain obligations to other countries' citizens?

harkyns_castle 12y ago
Quite right, it'd be a terrible spy agency with those restrictions. I have no issue with warranted investigations, or prosecuting people doing bad things. I'm arguing that broad, warrantless surveillance is a horrible, chilling thing to be doing. The fact that everyone is doing it doesn't make me feel better.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
claudius 12y ago
Of course no country has such an obligation per se. But if your government constantly attacks my infrastructure, why oh why should I even consider paying a penny for your service? Given that many American companies still market to users outside the US, this nevertheless seems to be the overall expectation.
sliverstorm 12y ago
Let me get this straight... - we are a spy agency - we cannot spy on citizens - we cannot spy on non-citizens Best spy agency ever.
goodcanadian 12y ago
It is not about spying or not spying, it is about spying on legitimate targets. All countries (should) have obligations to basic human rights. If I were a head of state, I would expect the U.S. to attempt to spy on me (and I would expect my country to stop them). As an private individual, I very much have the same rights under the U.S. constitution as do U.S. citizens. It is not OK to violate my right to to be free from unreasonable search and seizure. They should have to get a warrant to spy on me, just as they (should) have to do for an American.

aestra 12y ago

>In particular I find the constant harking back to "Well, we don't spy on US citizens, only everyone else." particularly annoying. It is annoying, but there is a reason why it is being said. Laws (are supposed to) prohibit (more or less) the US spying on its own citizens without cause. It is written into the constitution (more or less). Foreigners don't have that protection under law. Whether that should be changed or not is a different question than are these programs legal under current laws.