11 ms·

Young people 'feel they have nothing to live for'

115 points by thewarrior 12y ago

jxf 12y ago
If you or someone you know is contemplating suicide, many countries have a hotline you can use to find someone to talk to: http://pastie.org/pastes/9180833/text?key=uuqxmp5nxexuszswumy3pa http://pastie.org/pastes/9180833/text?key=uuqxmp5nxexuszswum... If you don't have a phone (or even if you do), feel free to message me if you'd like to talk to someone in the startup/tech community who's also worked as a crisis counselor. Contact info's in my HN profile.
- bobbles 12y ago
  If you're in Australia and you or someone you know needs help, contact lifeline: http://www.lifeline.org.au/ http://www.lifeline.org.au/ - Call: 13 11 14
benaston 12y ago
This is the result of the government being so "open minded" that they end up not looking out for the best interests of their own populous. By "open minded" I mean rapidly (this being the operative word) removing all cross-border controls with countries with wildly differing economies, resulting in wage deflation and joblessness for a huge number of people. Of course the people hardest hit are those at the bottom of the income chart - the young. At the same time, the cost of living has rocketed as a result of the mishandling of the banking sector, resulting in a housing boom (that from a political perspective cannot be permitted now to be undone and has been subsequently propped up by a heavily indebted the government). Again the worst off have been non-homeowners (i.e. the young). It's impossible to blame the current administration for all of it, you have to blame the entire political establishment (all 3 main parties have been in power within the last 15 years). Their worldview has to be questioned. Significant errors of judgement have been made repeatedly over the last 15 years - Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria (no action taken by a hairs breadth even after everything that had come before), the banking crisis, handling of the educational system (including higher education), rapidly opening borders to former eastern-bloc countries, limitless spying on UK citizens, no reform of an undemocratic (not elected, but "appointed") European Commission, and migration of law making powers to the EU without consultation and assent by the public (through referendum).
- bgarbiak 12y ago
  You're being downvoted - probably - for blaming "former eastern-bloc countries" for the state of things in UK. Well, it's just not that simple. From purely economical point of view the recent arrival of labor from Eastern Europe was a positive, it added 0.25 percentage points to UK's growth (according to research done by Treasury). That's no surprise, since the immigrants are coming in for jobs (often for the low skilled jobs, since they don't know language enough to start a career in their field), so don't demand rents, education and healthcare right off. Non-European immigrations affected jobs market negatively, yet only in two years of recent recession, in 2009 and 2010. There are, of course, other, non-economical aspects, and here it's not so rosy. This article touches the issue from many points of view: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10822956/EU-elections-2014-Is-immigration-good-for-Britain.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10822956... Then, there's Germany. The only country in Europe where young people have relatively no problems with getting a job. Why? Germans keep their job market closed, so that's seems like an easy answer. Yet, France and some others did the same, and it didn't help. And surely, Germany is significantly stronger economically that the rest. However, they too had a period of high youth unemployment rates. So that isn't it either. However, in exactly that period they introduced Nationaler Pakt für. Ausbildung und Fachkräftenachwuchs (Vocational and Educational Training Pact) - a solution that allows young people to simultaneously work and study. It's not a system with no flaws, but it worked. Source: http://www.worldcrunch.com/opinion-analysis/how-germany-beats-the-youth-unemployment-trap/training-pact-opinion-unemployment-youth-jobless-labor-education/c7s11646/ http://www.worldcrunch.com/opinion-analysis/how-germany-beat...
  - benaston 12y ago
    That's a mischaracterisation of my argument. I am blaming the political elites, not the eastern bloc countries (who are blameless). If I had no qualifications and I suddenly no longer needed a masters degree to come to a country with a minimum wage 7 times that in my homeland - I'd be on the first flight there. Your discussion regarding the situation in France and Germany is pertinent but widens the discussion beyond my narrow point. Supply and demand is econ 101. If the supply of low wage labour goes through the roof, then wages are compressed for a section of the population (the young and low paid) that can ill deal with the effects. Now you you might say, "well, we have the minimum wage in the UK" - but there are all kinds of tricks employers will use to circumvent this, and with high supply, they can more easily get away with this type of behavior. Finally, the minimum wage, is not actually a liveable wage for an independent adult in the UK in 2014 (despite protestations, I'm sure), and so offers little in the way of protection anyway.
whbk 12y ago
I'm a couple years out of college and can't overstate how real this is (in America, though I know the article is focused on the UK). Last summer I flew back to my Midwestern hometown for a concert, and I still remember being introduced to a friend of a friend. She was a college graduate one year removed, vastly 'underemployed' [1], and living in her parents basement. When my friend mentioned that I was just in town from SF for the weekend, she asked what I did and after telling her, her reaction was something along the lines of 'oh you're like a real grown up!' Her tone was one of embarrassment and a begrudging acceptance of where she was, and it's one I've seen a fair bit despite going to a pretty solid school. Not Ivy League, mind you, but a reasonably high-ranked state school. I really have no idea what the solution is, but I've thought a fair bit about the as of yet unrealized ripple effects: Many of these people are in debt up to their eyeballs. Given that, they're going to be much less likely to (or at least will significantly delay) purchases of cars and real estate. Dating is a lot harder when you're living at your parents', and I'm sure we'll see an impact in the ratio of singles/families among my generation as a result. Then there's the whole psychological impact of feeling they have nothing going for them that the article focuses on. Pretty dismal scene. [1] Honestly, I hate this term. It shouldn't be any surprise to us that when we promote an 'everyone goes to college!' culture a la 'everyone's a home owner!', coupled with an insidious lowering of standards in our education system starting in the lower rungs of K-12, we'll have a mass of college-educated individuals who can't find gainful employment.
- ericd 12y ago
  I think implementing basic income would probably help at least somewhat, but everyone still needs some way to feel like they're contributing. Also, short of bringing back protectionist measures like high tariffs and reversing globalization somewhat (maybe not a terrible idea), it seems like we need to create a much more highly skilled workforce than the one we have so that we can move up the value chain.
  - cgag 12y ago
    I feel like somewhat is really underselling it.
deleted 12y ago
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- zacinbusiness 12y ago
  What's your point here?
  - holdenc 12y ago
    The point is this: while people with good jobs feel they have something to live for, much of what happens is the simplistic perpetuation of consumerism. And, while the unemployed tie their value to their net worth, they miss out on some of the simple things that can make life wonderful -- none of which is a curved iPhone.
    - tonyedgecombe 12y ago
      It isn't just the unemployed who suffer from this, it's endemic in our society.
    - zacinbusiness 12y ago
      At one point in my life the IRS estimated my income to be a whopping -$500. I could barely feed myself and my wife, who was constantly sick because we couldn't afford insurance or medicine. There weren't any simple things in life back then, because literally every day was a struggle to survive. I would walk to work and she would drive to work. We pulled in a combined $1000 a month and rent alone was well over half that. And we were not living in a luxurious house. It was a roach infested hell hole. Being poor is about a lot more than just not being able to afford an iPhone. And it's extremely offensive for someone to suggest otherwise.
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mcantelon 12y ago
Immigration to the UK has created a labour surplus. It's not a coincidence that the UKIP is doing well.
- brazzy 12y ago
  No, it hasn't: http://www.migrationpolicycentre.eu/migration-myths-migration-unemployment/ http://www.migrationpolicycentre.eu/migration-myths-migratio...
  - benaston 12y ago
    Correlation is not causation. Sorry that was too easy ;P
    - brazzy 12y ago
      Try to understand what something means before you mindlessly parrot it. The article I linked to shows that there is no correlation, or even negative correlation between immigration and unemployment. And that actually proves pretty conclusively that there is no causation.
      - benaston 12y ago
        OK, my comment was glib, but I do understand the meaning of "correlation is not causation". The link you provide attempts to refute the argument that "immigration causes unemployment". You correctly point out that no correlation was found in the case of the UK. My point (and hence my rather glib comment) is that this lack of correlation tells us nothing about causation. Importantly, taking unemployment overall conceals that fact that certain portions of the workforce (i.e. the young and low paid) are disproportionately affected by a rapid influx of young tradesmen and low-skilled workers.
  - mcantelon 12y ago
    Whether or not immigration causes the increased unemployment, when there's more unemployed than there are jobs it's pretty hard to argue that immigration, which increases the labour pool, improves the situation. Establishment EU politicians seem to generally support immigration, which makes sense if one's objective is to lower the cost of labour for business (and weaken the power of unions).
rdtsc 12y ago
> "I were suicidal at times coz I felt worthless and it just went on and on and I weren't getting anywhere." That was hard to read and it is very serious stuff. Some might take a derisive, cynical approach that "Well in so many countries people have to much worse and how do these people from a first world country think that way". But it is important to note that human experience is unique the pain one experiences is often relative to their environment and their expectations. Someone I knew was very successful and made millions of dollars (tens or so). And then his accountant stole probably half of it and disappeared. Well this acquaintance had contemplated suicide. And when word got out, many friends and acquaintances were laughing at him. "He still had all this great wealth and there he was ready to take his own life." But, the pain he was experiencing, was real to him. And he was ready to take that step. The wisdom to understand (maybe not agree with it, but at least to understand) comes a bit later in life.
sz4kerto 12y ago
I think part of the problem is that we don't have real problems. Throughout the last centuries every single generation had very fundamental challenges, mostly related to survival. Wars, hunger, whatever. Now first you have to find out what you want (career, gadget, car, traveling), then work for it, but the problems are not as simple and existential as they used to be. Most challenges are related to competition, pride and ego building, not to basic things like finding a small shelter to stay in, acquiring food and raising as many children as possible.
- danieltillett 12y ago
  The problems are real, just more diffuse and less immediate (no war to get conscripted off to for example). The big problem right now is the huge shift in the value of human labor resulting from by a whole series of causes (immigration, technological change, movement of capital, globalisation, etc).
- zacinbusiness 12y ago
  Yeah this is a problem. I think a lot of it comes down to cultural value shifts. My wife asks her students why they choose major X or Y and they almost always answer that they think it will help them to get a job. She then asks why they want that job and they say that it's important to be stable and have steady income. These are 18-19 year old kids, mind you. They should not be worried about being stable, they should be plotting adventures and taking risks. But the US has become so crippled by fear (of terrorism, joblessness, the NSA whatever) that a whole generation of kids is growing up and simply being as safe as they can be. And because they don't seek out trouble, they don't get to feel the excitement of overcoming problems, and that's very dangerous in my mind.
  - watwut 12y ago
    The thing about taking risk is that you may not overcome problems. If you are sure that you will overcome all problems, then it was not a risk to begin with. Those who plotted adventures always either graduated into booming economy or had rich parents to help them. Thinking about your ability to find job in bad economy after you take all that debt on you does not strikes me as excessively risk averse. The opposite strikes me as irresponsible. And punishment for not finding job and being unemployed for months is hard. There is a big difference between "I send application and a job with benefits is found in a month" and "it will take a lot of time and may end up as long term unemployed". America is not exactly nice to those who failed and even yours kids will have it hard to impossible to get better life if you fail. We have the idea that 18-19 old should be worry free because we graduated into exceptionally good market and economy. We were privileged so to speak. If you look at history, non-priviledged non-rich adults did not used to have worry-free-do-not-care about income periods in their lives.
benjaminwootton 12y ago
It must be miserable to be in your early 20s today. The prospect of high student debt, more competitive job environment, polarising of wealth, a housing bubble that perpetuates here in the UK. I'm only early 30s but I'm glad I was born when I was. IMO You really can't underestimate the importance of that last one, the property bubble. In the past young people could strive towards buying their own place, starting a family, climbing the ladder, but that's so far out of reach nowadays that many people can't even hope to play that game. One of the big drivers in many people's lives has been pulled out of reach. It can all feel like a treadmill even if you're in a good job so I can see how young people who aren't working in a hot industry such as tech in a major city to feel this way.
- pawelkomarnicki 12y ago
  I don't agree that life now feels like "treadmill" — life is what you make of it, if you live just to score fancy abroad vacations, buy new phone every year and wear 10 pairs of Tommy Hillfiger jeans... well then your life is a treadmill ;-) It's a matter of perspective and focus in life
  - Afal 12y ago
    If you don't mind me asking; are you one of those people who use the word "Millennial" unironically?
  - lrem 12y ago
    Did you notice the key point? Property prices. They are out of reach. A friend from my last office wants to buy a home. He has essentially a guarantee of lifelong employment, with a salary that today equates to something around 3000€/month pre-tax. He wants to own a small house in the neighborhood where he's renting now. But he's searching for a few years now, as he doesn't want to pay a million for it. Yup, 27.7 years of pre-tax salary for a small house. And mind you, this is not even a capital city.
    - lazylizard 12y ago
      i imagined singapore was unique..take the price of the house(http://www.hdb.gov.sg/fi10/fi10321p.nsf/w/BuyResaleFlatMedianResalePrices?OpenDocument http://www.hdb.gov.sg/fi10/fi10321p.nsf/w/BuyResaleFlatMedia...), multiply it by 2(because loans and insterest), divide it by the income(http://stats.mom.gov.sg/Pages/Income-Summary-Table.aspx http://stats.mom.gov.sg/Pages/Income-Summary-Table.aspx)... i'm always wondering how many singaporeans have a flat of their own...
RodericDay 12y ago
I would say that in a very self-aware, half-ironic, half-serious way, anti-capitalism is one of the few things that gives my life that fuzzy feeling of "meaning" these days. I spend a lot of time thinking about how I can reconcile my software skills with lofty goals of a more just society, but it's pretty tough. I think it was the piratebay founder that said it was impossible. In any case, yesteryear dreams like "starting a prosperous household" seem not only unattainable, but hollow as well, in 2014. It's definitely weird being a young adult these days. ps. lmao @ "we don't have real problems". I guess massive underemployment, environmental wreckage, domestic espionage, corporate wage fixing, increasingly sophisticated advertising, etc. are all just a blip on the radar compared to the fights of old boys. It's just not as romantic as it used to be, it's the inter-generational equivalent to "poor people have refrigerators".
- tartle 12y ago
  yep, that's quite sad we have so little anticapitalist software projects. Like helping workers to organize, run consumer cooperatives efficiently, construct parecon-style economic networks...
- clarry 12y ago
  > ps. lmao @ "we don't have real problems". I think that referred to concrete problems that concern the individual and can be solved by work. You need food to live. So people farm. People need houses. So people build houses. That sort of stuff. Yes, we have lots of problems now. But you can't grab a hammer and nails and build a solution to massive underemployment while earning a living for it. Food and houses on the other hand, at least in the western world, are more or less solved. You don't need to build a house and a farm. You just need fing money to get a house.
jbb555 12y ago
This headline seems to be missing the essential word "some" at the beginning.
Nanzikambe 12y ago
Step one: Study something & complete studies Step two: Discover you actually hate all professions associated with your qualifications, or that your qualifications are useless in the job market and your career goals were utterly unrealistic Step three: Mooch at home unwilling to retrain or do something menial, or with no relevance to your skill set to tide you over whilst you find something better Step four, establish your new NEET identity and blame society, everyone and everything but yourself for your circumstance and the lack of a suitable high paying job served on a platter I say this as someone that hasn't completed any education beyond GCSE level (I guess that's college in the US), and has never had any trouble finding paid work several within 10 days and something that I want to do within 60 days of that. I've worked throughout Europe, the UK and Southern Africa. Apologies for the lack of empathy here, but it really isn't that hard. Just be prepared to go anywhere and do anything
- amirmc 12y ago
  > "... beyond GCSE level (I guess that's college in the US)" I'd say that's high-school for the US. Your attitude of go anywhere, do anything, may have worked very well for you but it's not actually possible for many people.
  - Nanzikambe 12y ago
    > Your attitude of go anywhere, do anything, may have worked very well for you but it's not actually possible for many people. Why? I find it no less true today than a decade ago.
    - dagw 12y ago
      Some people have to/want to care for/about people other than themselves.
      - Nanzikambe 12y ago
        Ok without getting defensive about the salient subtext, I see your point; but I think that argument is a non-starter unless you mean specifically in the context of physical care, which can't possibly apply to the cited number of young people. After all without the financial means and independence how can you care and provide for anyone let alone yourself? In my own context, sure - at least initially I had only myself to care about, so I won't argue that :)
Jare 12y ago
You may imagine what it's like in Spain, where over 50% of young people are unemployed and for the most part doing nothing at all. Part of me hates them for not using that time to educate and prepare themselves, but hopelessness is extremely hard to overcome, especially in a society full of distracting elements like successful soccer teams, excellent weather or apparent friendliness.
- vacri 12y ago
  There is also the psychological problem of having been out of work for a long time - returning to full time work is psychologically traumatic, and hard to get used to. Obviously it's doable, but it's not trivial. Those of us who already work full-time are used to it and have our lives built around it and accommodate it, but to make the shift from long-term unemployed to full-time worker is quite the lifestyle change. A friend of mine works in occupational therapy, and part of what they do is deal with this issue in getting people back to work. It's called "work hardening".
nostromo 12y ago
Have humans always been so defined by their work? Honest question. I personally find a lot of fulfillment in my work. But I don't know how I could expect a janitor at a truck stop to feel the same way. I feel like the answer to this conundrum -- and in general the long term trend of job obviation -- is to decouple an individual's worth from their economic value. But what would a world without work look like? I can imagine it being heaven or hell.
- vinchuco 12y ago
  what do you mean by ''an individual's worth''?
- peterjancelis 12y ago
  In university I did a summer job at my local municipality twice. Those people had extremely boring job and joked openly about how they had to learn to work less hard. A lot of them had hobbies where they derived their life satisfaction from, like being a coach for the local football team.
- trustfundbaby 12y ago
  > But what would a world without work look like? Its something we better start getting ready for because technology gets rid of far more jobs than it creates and will only continue to do so for the forseeable future. Eventually only super highly skilled and creative jobs (writing, art etc) that can't be handled by robot/android/humanoids will be left to do and we'll have to figure out how to allot a basic living wage to people with increments to that coming based on ... specious things like their popularity ... maybe? (I shudder to imagine this)
  - andyhmltn 12y ago
    >increments to that coming based on ... specious things like their popularity ... maybe? (I shudder to imagine this) What about being allocated money based on your positive (and negative) contributions to society? You currently can earn millions doing absolutely nothing useful ripping people off in wall st or earn pennies devoting your life to helping others
suprgeek 12y ago
Some very troubling trends for young people today: 1) Education has become much more expensive than just 10 years ago - you typically leave college with anywhere upto ~50K in debt 2) The Economy has changed - companies are making do with fewer people despite huge demand - (basically a jobless recovery) 3) Asinine trend of "you need to have a job to get a job" - basically some one already employed has 2-3 job offers but some one starting out has no one willing to take a risk on them 4) Some narrow sectors are indeed booming but most are locked out of them
- rectangletangle 12y ago
  >Asinine trend of "you need to have a job to get a job" - basically some one already employed has 2-3 job offers but some one starting out has no one willing to take a risk on them This one is particularly relevant. It's literally impossible to get your foot in the door these days. I've had three separate tech companies string me along through multiple rounds of interviews, simply to say that the position was axed due to them requiring someone with more "experience", or funding was cut for the position due to the abysmal state of the economy. To be clear I wasn't even properly rejected (that's much easier to deal with), the positions were literally withdrawn. Among my group of friends I'm the lucky one to even land interviews. Most of them are severely underemployed, or unemployed.
  - SixSigma 12y ago
    I'm a single sample point. In three years I have gone from unemployment with zero experience and pay in engineering to £21k per annum. I did this by doing part-time courses in Autocad and then the same in Manufacturing Engineering, doing a year of minimum wage to pay for the first year of courses. But I share the fears and doubts of the poorly skilled individuals. With no experience of the workplace or what it takes to be a decent employee that gets somewhere. Being unemployed is depressing and you have to be mentally strong to survive it. Making chances for yourself is much easier said than done.
bayesianhorse 12y ago
All things are empty. That counts doubly for things like patriotism, family life, and career success. Maybe this realization is just quicker? Maybe this also means a higher ratio of people are happy because they embraced emptyness?
- 6d0debc071 12y ago
  > All things are empty. And living in a certain way fills them. Not necessarily intentionally or to our benefit. Some music is beautiful to me, some acts are pleasurable, some pictures and stories resonate. Maybe they're empty when taken objectively, but I don't see how that constitutes an answer to the poverty of subjective beings. We mostly seem to have things that, based on our histories and to some extent our biology, we've learned to draw pleasure or pain from. And that learning does not seem like it can easily be altered in a well designed manner. If it could, psychology would be a vastly simpler undertaking: "I'm depressed and I can't afford to do much more than eat." "Don't worry, switch over to the Nihilism 2.0 release and then patch it with Existentialism 3.1" ;)
kenster07 12y ago
The article's title is quite link-baity. That being said, it is obvious that technology will displace more and more traditional human labor. Of course, unlike in the past, human labor becomes increasingly unnecessary to sustain said humans on a biological level. It's a trade-off, and the cognitive dissonance is the "traditional" (20th century, Agent Smith) model of human worth being rendered invalid by the realities of technological progress.
digitalengineer 12y ago
"By offering employers wage incentives worth up to £2,275 we are helping businesses to take them on. " I've seen this in action. The jobs these kids got were from people who got fired in order to make room for them. As a company getting paid to have someone perform work for you is real nice. But it does not CREATE jobs. In order to pay for all these things our sales-tax rate was pumped up to an all new high 21%...
scrrr 12y ago
That's why I wonder why some European countries have voted more right-wing parties. [1] (Most of the voters being employees, too.) More capitalism and less welfare cannot be the solution, because aside from the moral obligations [2] there's a real danger of social and economical instability. Sure, you can throw lots of police at demonstrators, but for one there will be more and more people who no longer can afford to buy your iPhones, and secondly, at some point it might get really ugly. I am blessed to live in a safe place and earn a lot of money. But I do feel we need to put a part of it aside for direct help of the unemployed folks, especially the young, and for programs to tackle these problems. And if we don't it will could turn out to be a bad century. For all of us. [1] I speculate they are exploiting the egoism that's in all of us for their campaigns. [2] If you don't think there are any, think about how much about your own life is the result of chance, and how it easily might be the other way round. For example you being a poor immigrant in a foreign country.
dkarapetyan 12y ago
This is a non-problem. One person can now do the job of a hundred but we have more people than ever before. Increasing automation is only going to make this trend worse. It is unfortunate that most politicians continue to peddle an outdated idea of social worth and well-being. I don't have a solution but then again most of these young people are far better off than the generation before them so maybe they should stop being so gloomy. Most of them have pretty much free access to all of life's necessities and they are going to live longer than any generation before them.
- ericd 12y ago
  A life of comfortable idleness is not a very good one. They can develop hobbies, but it's hard in a work dominated culture to derive sufficient meaning and pride from that.
  - dkarapetyan 12y ago
    I don't think that's true. The key is to approach something, whatever it is, with focus and discipline. I've never met a person that satisfied that criteria that I didn't like. My thinking is very unexceptional in this regard. On the other hand, feeling that global market forces and dynamics should just turn around and succumb to your desire for a job just so you won't be depressed seems quite silly to me.
    - ericd 12y ago
      Governments can change the dynamics of global market forces (tariffs are a good example of this). I don't think it's silly to lobby your government to change things to benefit you and other citizens.
- mcantelon 12y ago
  >these young people are far better off than the generation before Which generation are you thinking of? That doesn't ring true. Things started going sideways for my generation (generation X) and then globalization happened and now automation is happening. Tech has made things better for a small subset of workers, but not everyone is suited to tech work. Globalization and automation are significant changes.
digitalengineer 12y ago
I'd like to share this. I've read it a long time ago and it's about the disappearing middle class in Argentina during the crisis of the 2000: Notes about the middle class falling, from a Student of Architecture ...This, this was important, a moment where the life we once knew stopped existing, and a group of students, in a class room that looked like and abandoned building, realized it, all 60 of us at the same time. We understood it the same way a kid understands photosynthesis: Because a teacher coldly explained it to us, even used graphics… It happened 4 years ago, almost a year after the December 2001 crisis. It was a social studies class and this teacher, don’t remember if it was a he or a she, was explaining the different kinds of social pyramids. We even had a text book with those darn, cruel pyramids! The first pyramid explained the basic society. A pyramid with two horizontal lines, dividing those on top (high social class) those in the middle (middle class) and the bottom of the pyramid (the poor, proletarian). The teacher explained that the middle of the pyramid, the middle class, acted as a cushion between the rich and the poor, taking care of the social stress. The second pyramid had a big middle section, this was the pyramid that represents 1st world countries. One where the bottom is very thin and arrows show that there is a possibility to go from low to middle class, and from middle to the top of the social pyramid. Our teacher explained that this was the classic, democratic capitalist society, and that on countries such as Europeans one, socialists, the pyramid was very similar but a little more flat, meaning that here is a big middle section, middle class, and small high and low class. There is little difference between the three of them. The third pyramid showed the communist society. Where arrows from the low and middle class tried to reach the top but they bounced off the line. A small high society and one big low society, cushioned by a minimal middle class section of pyramid. Then we turned the page and saw the darned fourth pyramid. This one had arrows from the middle class dropping to the low, poor class. “What is this?” Some of us asked. The teacher looked at us. “This is us” “It’s the collapsed country, a country that turns into 3rd world country like in pyramid five where there is almost no middle class to speak, one huge low, poor class , and a very small, very rich, top class.” “What are those arrows that go from the middle to the bottom of the pyramid?” Someone asked. You could hear a pin drop. “That is middle class turning into poor”. I won’t lie, no one cried, though people rubbed their faces, held their heads and their breath. No one cried, but we all knew at that very moment that all we thought, all we took for granted, simply was not going to happen. “You see, the income from the middle class is not enough to function as middle class any more. Some from the top class fall to middle class, but the vast majority of the middle class turns into poor” Said the teacher. I don’t know how many people in that room suddenly understood that he/she was poor. The teacher continued “You see, we have a middle class that suddenly turns to poor, creating a society of basically poor people, there is no more middle class to cushion tensions any more. Middle class suddenly discovers that they are overqualified for the jobs they can find and have to settle for anything they can obtain, therefore unemployment sky rockets: too much to offer, too little demand. You see they prepare, study for a job they are not going to get. You kids, you are studying Architecture because you simply wish to do so. Only 3 or 4 percent of you will actually find a job related to architecture.” We all sat there, letting it all sink in. After a few months, it all proved to be true. Even the amount of students that dropped out of college increased to at least 50%. They either so no point in studying something that would not make much of a difference in their future salaries, had no money to keep themselves in college, or simply had to drop college to work and support their families. (Edit: spelling)
mbenjaminsmith 12y ago
Apart from people who are mentally ill (an immediate family member included) I have very little sympathy for young people who can't find their own way. I'm pushing 40 and have older siblings in their 50s. Only one of them went to college right out of high school (more went later on when they could afford to pay for it) and the others joined the military to get a start in the world. All of my siblings -- minus the one under lifetime treatment for depression -- are successful today. They all have fulfilling careers and healthy families. None of them had it easy. My parents (begrudgingly) paid for (most of) my college. There was quite of bit of resentment in my family as I had grown up assuming that I would go to college and someone would pay for it, a fairly common belief at the time, at least among my peers. After changing majors a couple of times my parents told me I was on my own. I was angry at first and then I started a small business with some friends, worked hard and finished. After college I moved to another country and worked hard to get a career-path job. After that I worked hard starting my own company in that field. Apart from the degree my parents helped pay for I did it all on my own steam. Those decisions I made -- finishing school, moving to another country, quitting a job to start a company -- those were the ones that defined my life and paved the way for the things that I enjoy today. (I'm not suggesting I've arrived anywhere, just that I've acquired the tools to live a fulfilling life.) Whenever I meet young people (and by young I mean just out of college) I'm sometimes very impressed though I'm often shocked at how much they expect from the world. The impressive ones seem to get it and are working hard either on their own businesses or taking the most aggressive route through graduate school somewhere interesting -- doing what it takes to carve out a niche. The ones that don't impress me think that getting a degree (or even not getting one) means they're going to have a comfortable life, free of hardship. It's not just young people though. I see a lot of people my age who cynically pick up a paycheck every month in a field they're not passionate about, that they're not truly invested in. Then they completely fall apart because they "got downsized" and they go frantic on FB looking for a lifeline. These are the same people at different stages in life. If you're willing to dig in and make your own way then you might get what you want out of life. If not then don't be surprised when life goes sideways.
- ericd 12y ago
  If you're pushing 40, that means that you came of age in the boom years of the mid 90s. Do you see how that could be very different from those coming of age now?
toddh 12y ago
Such feelings are ages old. Friedrich Nietzsche thought of these feelings as a long sickness that he was eventually cured of. He suggested laughter to be a reaction to the sense of existential loneliness and mortality that only humans feel. Having a job is a good thing. But that won't make the feelings go away. It just hides them for a time.
clockworkelf 12y ago
That is because they don't actually have anything to live for. Welcome to the technocracy.

115 points by thewarrior 12y ago

jxf 12y ago

If you or someone you know is contemplating suicide, many countries have a hotline you can use to find someone to talk to: http://pastie.org/pastes/9180833/text?key=uuqxmp5nxexuszswumy3pa http://pastie.org/pastes/9180833/text?key=uuqxmp5nxexuszswum... If you don't have a phone (or even if you do), feel free to message me if you'd like to talk to someone in the startup/tech community who's also worked as a crisis counselor. Contact info's in my HN profile.

bobbles 12y ago
If you're in Australia and you or someone you know needs help, contact lifeline: http://www.lifeline.org.au/ http://www.lifeline.org.au/ - Call: 13 11 14

benaston 12y ago

This is the result of the government being so "open minded" that they end up not looking out for the best interests of their own populous. By "open minded" I mean rapidly (this being the operative word) removing all cross-border controls with countries with wildly differing economies, resulting in wage deflation and joblessness for a huge number of people. Of course the people hardest hit are those at the bottom of the income chart - the young. At the same time, the cost of living has rocketed as a result of the mishandling of the banking sector, resulting in a housing boom (that from a political perspective cannot be permitted now to be undone and has been subsequently propped up by a heavily indebted the government). Again the worst off have been non-homeowners (i.e. the young). It's impossible to blame the current administration for all of it, you have to blame the entire political establishment (all 3 main parties have been in power within the last 15 years). Their worldview has to be questioned. Significant errors of judgement have been made repeatedly over the last 15 years - Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria (no action taken by a hairs breadth even after everything that had come before), the banking crisis, handling of the educational system (including higher education), rapidly opening borders to former eastern-bloc countries, limitless spying on UK citizens, no reform of an undemocratic (not elected, but "appointed") European Commission, and migration of law making powers to the EU without consultation and assent by the public (through referendum).

bgarbiak 12y ago
You're being downvoted - probably - for blaming "former eastern-bloc countries" for the state of things in UK. Well, it's just not that simple. From purely economical point of view the recent arrival of labor from Eastern Europe was a positive, it added 0.25 percentage points to UK's growth (according to research done by Treasury). That's no surprise, since the immigrants are coming in for jobs (often for the low skilled jobs, since they don't know language enough to start a career in their field), so don't demand rents, education and healthcare right off. Non-European immigrations affected jobs market negatively, yet only in two years of recent recession, in 2009 and 2010. There are, of course, other, non-economical aspects, and here it's not so rosy. This article touches the issue from many points of view: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10822956/EU-elections-2014-Is-immigration-good-for-Britain.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10822956... Then, there's Germany. The only country in Europe where young people have relatively no problems with getting a job. Why? Germans keep their job market closed, so that's seems like an easy answer. Yet, France and some others did the same, and it didn't help. And surely, Germany is significantly stronger economically that the rest. However, they too had a period of high youth unemployment rates. So that isn't it either. However, in exactly that period they introduced Nationaler Pakt für. Ausbildung und Fachkräftenachwuchs (Vocational and Educational Training Pact) - a solution that allows young people to simultaneously work and study. It's not a system with no flaws, but it worked. Source: http://www.worldcrunch.com/opinion-analysis/how-germany-beats-the-youth-unemployment-trap/training-pact-opinion-unemployment-youth-jobless-labor-education/c7s11646/ http://www.worldcrunch.com/opinion-analysis/how-germany-beat...
- benaston 12y ago
  That's a mischaracterisation of my argument. I am blaming the political elites, not the eastern bloc countries (who are blameless). If I had no qualifications and I suddenly no longer needed a masters degree to come to a country with a minimum wage 7 times that in my homeland - I'd be on the first flight there. Your discussion regarding the situation in France and Germany is pertinent but widens the discussion beyond my narrow point. Supply and demand is econ 101. If the supply of low wage labour goes through the roof, then wages are compressed for a section of the population (the young and low paid) that can ill deal with the effects. Now you you might say, "well, we have the minimum wage in the UK" - but there are all kinds of tricks employers will use to circumvent this, and with high supply, they can more easily get away with this type of behavior. Finally, the minimum wage, is not actually a liveable wage for an independent adult in the UK in 2014 (despite protestations, I'm sure), and so offers little in the way of protection anyway.

whbk 12y ago

I'm a couple years out of college and can't overstate how real this is (in America, though I know the article is focused on the UK). Last summer I flew back to my Midwestern hometown for a concert, and I still remember being introduced to a friend of a friend. She was a college graduate one year removed, vastly 'underemployed' [1], and living in her parents basement. When my friend mentioned that I was just in town from SF for the weekend, she asked what I did and after telling her, her reaction was something along the lines of 'oh you're like a real grown up!' Her tone was one of embarrassment and a begrudging acceptance of where she was, and it's one I've seen a fair bit despite going to a pretty solid school. Not Ivy League, mind you, but a reasonably high-ranked state school. I really have no idea what the solution is, but I've thought a fair bit about the as of yet unrealized ripple effects: Many of these people are in debt up to their eyeballs. Given that, they're going to be much less likely to (or at least will significantly delay) purchases of cars and real estate. Dating is a lot harder when you're living at your parents', and I'm sure we'll see an impact in the ratio of singles/families among my generation as a result. Then there's the whole psychological impact of feeling they have nothing going for them that the article focuses on. Pretty dismal scene. [1] Honestly, I hate this term. It shouldn't be any surprise to us that when we promote an 'everyone goes to college!' culture a la 'everyone's a home owner!', coupled with an insidious lowering of standards in our education system starting in the lower rungs of K-12, we'll have a mass of college-educated individuals who can't find gainful employment.

ericd 12y ago
I think implementing basic income would probably help at least somewhat, but everyone still needs some way to feel like they're contributing. Also, short of bringing back protectionist measures like high tariffs and reversing globalization somewhat (maybe not a terrible idea), it seems like we need to create a much more highly skilled workforce than the one we have so that we can move up the value chain.
- cgag 12y ago
  I feel like somewhat is really underselling it.

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zacinbusiness 12y ago
What's your point here?
- holdenc 12y ago
  The point is this: while people with good jobs feel they have something to live for, much of what happens is the simplistic perpetuation of consumerism. And, while the unemployed tie their value to their net worth, they miss out on some of the simple things that can make life wonderful -- none of which is a curved iPhone.
  - tonyedgecombe 12y ago
    It isn't just the unemployed who suffer from this, it's endemic in our society.
  - zacinbusiness 12y ago
    At one point in my life the IRS estimated my income to be a whopping -$500. I could barely feed myself and my wife, who was constantly sick because we couldn't afford insurance or medicine. There weren't any simple things in life back then, because literally every day was a struggle to survive. I would walk to work and she would drive to work. We pulled in a combined $1000 a month and rent alone was well over half that. And we were not living in a luxurious house. It was a roach infested hell hole. Being poor is about a lot more than just not being able to afford an iPhone. And it's extremely offensive for someone to suggest otherwise.

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mcantelon 12y ago

Immigration to the UK has created a labour surplus. It's not a coincidence that the UKIP is doing well.

brazzy 12y ago
No, it hasn't: http://www.migrationpolicycentre.eu/migration-myths-migration-unemployment/ http://www.migrationpolicycentre.eu/migration-myths-migratio...
- benaston 12y ago
  Correlation is not causation. Sorry that was too easy ;P
  - brazzy 12y ago
    Try to understand what something means before you mindlessly parrot it. The article I linked to shows that there is no correlation, or even negative correlation between immigration and unemployment. And that actually proves pretty conclusively that there is no causation.
    - benaston 12y ago
      OK, my comment was glib, but I do understand the meaning of "correlation is not causation". The link you provide attempts to refute the argument that "immigration causes unemployment". You correctly point out that no correlation was found in the case of the UK. My point (and hence my rather glib comment) is that this lack of correlation tells us nothing about causation. Importantly, taking unemployment overall conceals that fact that certain portions of the workforce (i.e. the young and low paid) are disproportionately affected by a rapid influx of young tradesmen and low-skilled workers.
- mcantelon 12y ago
  Whether or not immigration causes the increased unemployment, when there's more unemployed than there are jobs it's pretty hard to argue that immigration, which increases the labour pool, improves the situation. Establishment EU politicians seem to generally support immigration, which makes sense if one's objective is to lower the cost of labour for business (and weaken the power of unions).

rdtsc 12y ago

> "I were suicidal at times coz I felt worthless and it just went on and on and I weren't getting anywhere." That was hard to read and it is very serious stuff. Some might take a derisive, cynical approach that "Well in so many countries people have to much worse and how do these people from a first world country think that way". But it is important to note that human experience is unique the pain one experiences is often relative to their environment and their expectations. Someone I knew was very successful and made millions of dollars (tens or so). And then his accountant stole probably half of it and disappeared. Well this acquaintance had contemplated suicide. And when word got out, many friends and acquaintances were laughing at him. "He still had all this great wealth and there he was ready to take his own life." But, the pain he was experiencing, was real to him. And he was ready to take that step. The wisdom to understand (maybe not agree with it, but at least to understand) comes a bit later in life.

sz4kerto 12y ago

I think part of the problem is that we don't have real problems. Throughout the last centuries every single generation had very fundamental challenges, mostly related to survival. Wars, hunger, whatever. Now first you have to find out what you want (career, gadget, car, traveling), then work for it, but the problems are not as simple and existential as they used to be. Most challenges are related to competition, pride and ego building, not to basic things like finding a small shelter to stay in, acquiring food and raising as many children as possible.

danieltillett 12y ago
The problems are real, just more diffuse and less immediate (no war to get conscripted off to for example). The big problem right now is the huge shift in the value of human labor resulting from by a whole series of causes (immigration, technological change, movement of capital, globalisation, etc).
zacinbusiness 12y ago
Yeah this is a problem. I think a lot of it comes down to cultural value shifts. My wife asks her students why they choose major X or Y and they almost always answer that they think it will help them to get a job. She then asks why they want that job and they say that it's important to be stable and have steady income. These are 18-19 year old kids, mind you. They should not be worried about being stable, they should be plotting adventures and taking risks. But the US has become so crippled by fear (of terrorism, joblessness, the NSA whatever) that a whole generation of kids is growing up and simply being as safe as they can be. And because they don't seek out trouble, they don't get to feel the excitement of overcoming problems, and that's very dangerous in my mind.
- watwut 12y ago
  The thing about taking risk is that you may not overcome problems. If you are sure that you will overcome all problems, then it was not a risk to begin with. Those who plotted adventures always either graduated into booming economy or had rich parents to help them. Thinking about your ability to find job in bad economy after you take all that debt on you does not strikes me as excessively risk averse. The opposite strikes me as irresponsible. And punishment for not finding job and being unemployed for months is hard. There is a big difference between "I send application and a job with benefits is found in a month" and "it will take a lot of time and may end up as long term unemployed". America is not exactly nice to those who failed and even yours kids will have it hard to impossible to get better life if you fail. We have the idea that 18-19 old should be worry free because we graduated into exceptionally good market and economy. We were privileged so to speak. If you look at history, non-priviledged non-rich adults did not used to have worry-free-do-not-care about income periods in their lives.

benjaminwootton 12y ago

It must be miserable to be in your early 20s today. The prospect of high student debt, more competitive job environment, polarising of wealth, a housing bubble that perpetuates here in the UK. I'm only early 30s but I'm glad I was born when I was. IMO You really can't underestimate the importance of that last one, the property bubble. In the past young people could strive towards buying their own place, starting a family, climbing the ladder, but that's so far out of reach nowadays that many people can't even hope to play that game. One of the big drivers in many people's lives has been pulled out of reach. It can all feel like a treadmill even if you're in a good job so I can see how young people who aren't working in a hot industry such as tech in a major city to feel this way.

pawelkomarnicki 12y ago
I don't agree that life now feels like "treadmill" — life is what you make of it, if you live just to score fancy abroad vacations, buy new phone every year and wear 10 pairs of Tommy Hillfiger jeans... well then your life is a treadmill ;-) It's a matter of perspective and focus in life
- Afal 12y ago
  If you don't mind me asking; are you one of those people who use the word "Millennial" unironically?
- lrem 12y ago
  Did you notice the key point? Property prices. They are out of reach. A friend from my last office wants to buy a home. He has essentially a guarantee of lifelong employment, with a salary that today equates to something around 3000€/month pre-tax. He wants to own a small house in the neighborhood where he's renting now. But he's searching for a few years now, as he doesn't want to pay a million for it. Yup, 27.7 years of pre-tax salary for a small house. And mind you, this is not even a capital city.
  - lazylizard 12y ago
    i imagined singapore was unique..take the price of the house(http://www.hdb.gov.sg/fi10/fi10321p.nsf/w/BuyResaleFlatMedianResalePrices?OpenDocument http://www.hdb.gov.sg/fi10/fi10321p.nsf/w/BuyResaleFlatMedia...), multiply it by 2(because loans and insterest), divide it by the income(http://stats.mom.gov.sg/Pages/Income-Summary-Table.aspx http://stats.mom.gov.sg/Pages/Income-Summary-Table.aspx)... i'm always wondering how many singaporeans have a flat of their own...

RodericDay 12y ago

I would say that in a very self-aware, half-ironic, half-serious way, anti-capitalism is one of the few things that gives my life that fuzzy feeling of "meaning" these days. I spend a lot of time thinking about how I can reconcile my software skills with lofty goals of a more just society, but it's pretty tough. I think it was the piratebay founder that said it was impossible. In any case, yesteryear dreams like "starting a prosperous household" seem not only unattainable, but hollow as well, in 2014. It's definitely weird being a young adult these days. ps. lmao @ "we don't have real problems". I guess massive underemployment, environmental wreckage, domestic espionage, corporate wage fixing, increasingly sophisticated advertising, etc. are all just a blip on the radar compared to the fights of old boys. It's just not as romantic as it used to be, it's the inter-generational equivalent to "poor people have refrigerators".

tartle 12y ago
yep, that's quite sad we have so little anticapitalist software projects. Like helping workers to organize, run consumer cooperatives efficiently, construct parecon-style economic networks...
clarry 12y ago
> ps. lmao @ "we don't have real problems". I think that referred to concrete problems that concern the individual and can be solved by work. You need food to live. So people farm. People need houses. So people build houses. That sort of stuff. Yes, we have lots of problems now. But you can't grab a hammer and nails and build a solution to massive underemployment while earning a living for it. Food and houses on the other hand, at least in the western world, are more or less solved. You don't need to build a house and a farm. You just need fing money to get a house.

jbb555 12y ago

This headline seems to be missing the essential word "some" at the beginning.

Nanzikambe 12y ago

Step one: Study something & complete studies Step two: Discover you actually hate all professions associated with your qualifications, or that your qualifications are useless in the job market and your career goals were utterly unrealistic Step three: Mooch at home unwilling to retrain or do something menial, or with no relevance to your skill set to tide you over whilst you find something better Step four, establish your new NEET identity and blame society, everyone and everything but yourself for your circumstance and the lack of a suitable high paying job served on a platter I say this as someone that hasn't completed any education beyond GCSE level (I guess that's college in the US), and has never had any trouble finding paid work several within 10 days and something that I want to do within 60 days of that. I've worked throughout Europe, the UK and Southern Africa. Apologies for the lack of empathy here, but it really isn't that hard. Just be prepared to go anywhere and do anything

amirmc 12y ago
> "... beyond GCSE level (I guess that's college in the US)" I'd say that's high-school for the US. Your attitude of go anywhere, do anything, may have worked very well for you but it's not actually possible for many people.
- Nanzikambe 12y ago
  > Your attitude of go anywhere, do anything, may have worked very well for you but it's not actually possible for many people. Why? I find it no less true today than a decade ago.
  - dagw 12y ago
    Some people have to/want to care for/about people other than themselves.
    - Nanzikambe 12y ago
      Ok without getting defensive about the salient subtext, I see your point; but I think that argument is a non-starter unless you mean specifically in the context of physical care, which can't possibly apply to the cited number of young people. After all without the financial means and independence how can you care and provide for anyone let alone yourself? In my own context, sure - at least initially I had only myself to care about, so I won't argue that :)

Jare 12y ago

You may imagine what it's like in Spain, where over 50% of young people are unemployed and for the most part doing nothing at all. Part of me hates them for not using that time to educate and prepare themselves, but hopelessness is extremely hard to overcome, especially in a society full of distracting elements like successful soccer teams, excellent weather or apparent friendliness.

vacri 12y ago
There is also the psychological problem of having been out of work for a long time - returning to full time work is psychologically traumatic, and hard to get used to. Obviously it's doable, but it's not trivial. Those of us who already work full-time are used to it and have our lives built around it and accommodate it, but to make the shift from long-term unemployed to full-time worker is quite the lifestyle change. A friend of mine works in occupational therapy, and part of what they do is deal with this issue in getting people back to work. It's called "work hardening".

nostromo 12y ago

Have humans always been so defined by their work? Honest question. I personally find a lot of fulfillment in my work. But I don't know how I could expect a janitor at a truck stop to feel the same way. I feel like the answer to this conundrum -- and in general the long term trend of job obviation -- is to decouple an individual's worth from their economic value. But what would a world without work look like? I can imagine it being heaven or hell.

vinchuco 12y ago
what do you mean by ''an individual's worth''?
peterjancelis 12y ago
In university I did a summer job at my local municipality twice. Those people had extremely boring job and joked openly about how they had to learn to work less hard. A lot of them had hobbies where they derived their life satisfaction from, like being a coach for the local football team.
trustfundbaby 12y ago
> But what would a world without work look like? Its something we better start getting ready for because technology gets rid of far more jobs than it creates and will only continue to do so for the forseeable future. Eventually only super highly skilled and creative jobs (writing, art etc) that can't be handled by robot/android/humanoids will be left to do and we'll have to figure out how to allot a basic living wage to people with increments to that coming based on ... specious things like their popularity ... maybe? (I shudder to imagine this)
- andyhmltn 12y ago
  >increments to that coming based on ... specious things like their popularity ... maybe? (I shudder to imagine this) What about being allocated money based on your positive (and negative) contributions to society? You currently can earn millions doing absolutely nothing useful ripping people off in wall st or earn pennies devoting your life to helping others

suprgeek 12y ago

Some very troubling trends for young people today: 1) Education has become much more expensive than just 10 years ago - you typically leave college with anywhere upto ~50K in debt 2) The Economy has changed - companies are making do with fewer people despite huge demand - (basically a jobless recovery) 3) Asinine trend of "you need to have a job to get a job" - basically some one already employed has 2-3 job offers but some one starting out has no one willing to take a risk on them 4) Some narrow sectors are indeed booming but most are locked out of them

rectangletangle 12y ago
>Asinine trend of "you need to have a job to get a job" - basically some one already employed has 2-3 job offers but some one starting out has no one willing to take a risk on them This one is particularly relevant. It's literally impossible to get your foot in the door these days. I've had three separate tech companies string me along through multiple rounds of interviews, simply to say that the position was axed due to them requiring someone with more "experience", or funding was cut for the position due to the abysmal state of the economy. To be clear I wasn't even properly rejected (that's much easier to deal with), the positions were literally withdrawn. Among my group of friends I'm the lucky one to even land interviews. Most of them are severely underemployed, or unemployed.
- SixSigma 12y ago
  I'm a single sample point. In three years I have gone from unemployment with zero experience and pay in engineering to £21k per annum. I did this by doing part-time courses in Autocad and then the same in Manufacturing Engineering, doing a year of minimum wage to pay for the first year of courses. But I share the fears and doubts of the poorly skilled individuals. With no experience of the workplace or what it takes to be a decent employee that gets somewhere. Being unemployed is depressing and you have to be mentally strong to survive it. Making chances for yourself is much easier said than done.

bayesianhorse 12y ago

All things are empty. That counts doubly for things like patriotism, family life, and career success. Maybe this realization is just quicker? Maybe this also means a higher ratio of people are happy because they embraced emptyness?

6d0debc071 12y ago
> All things are empty. And living in a certain way fills them. Not necessarily intentionally or to our benefit. Some music is beautiful to me, some acts are pleasurable, some pictures and stories resonate. Maybe they're empty when taken objectively, but I don't see how that constitutes an answer to the poverty of subjective beings. We mostly seem to have things that, based on our histories and to some extent our biology, we've learned to draw pleasure or pain from. And that learning does not seem like it can easily be altered in a well designed manner. If it could, psychology would be a vastly simpler undertaking: "I'm depressed and I can't afford to do much more than eat." "Don't worry, switch over to the Nihilism 2.0 release and then patch it with Existentialism 3.1" ;)

kenster07 12y ago

The article's title is quite link-baity. That being said, it is obvious that technology will displace more and more traditional human labor. Of course, unlike in the past, human labor becomes increasingly unnecessary to sustain said humans on a biological level. It's a trade-off, and the cognitive dissonance is the "traditional" (20th century, Agent Smith) model of human worth being rendered invalid by the realities of technological progress.

digitalengineer 12y ago

"By offering employers wage incentives worth up to £2,275 we are helping businesses to take them on. " I've seen this in action. The jobs these kids got were from people who got fired in order to make room for them. As a company getting paid to have someone perform work for you is real nice. But it does not CREATE jobs. In order to pay for all these things our sales-tax rate was pumped up to an all new high 21%...

scrrr 12y ago

That's why I wonder why some European countries have voted more right-wing parties. [1] (Most of the voters being employees, too.) More capitalism and less welfare cannot be the solution, because aside from the moral obligations [2] there's a real danger of social and economical instability. Sure, you can throw lots of police at demonstrators, but for one there will be more and more people who no longer can afford to buy your iPhones, and secondly, at some point it might get really ugly. I am blessed to live in a safe place and earn a lot of money. But I do feel we need to put a part of it aside for direct help of the unemployed folks, especially the young, and for programs to tackle these problems. And if we don't it will could turn out to be a bad century. For all of us. [1] I speculate they are exploiting the egoism that's in all of us for their campaigns. [2] If you don't think there are any, think about how much about your own life is the result of chance, and how it easily might be the other way round. For example you being a poor immigrant in a foreign country.

dkarapetyan 12y ago

This is a non-problem. One person can now do the job of a hundred but we have more people than ever before. Increasing automation is only going to make this trend worse. It is unfortunate that most politicians continue to peddle an outdated idea of social worth and well-being. I don't have a solution but then again most of these young people are far better off than the generation before them so maybe they should stop being so gloomy. Most of them have pretty much free access to all of life's necessities and they are going to live longer than any generation before them.

ericd 12y ago
A life of comfortable idleness is not a very good one. They can develop hobbies, but it's hard in a work dominated culture to derive sufficient meaning and pride from that.
- dkarapetyan 12y ago
  I don't think that's true. The key is to approach something, whatever it is, with focus and discipline. I've never met a person that satisfied that criteria that I didn't like. My thinking is very unexceptional in this regard. On the other hand, feeling that global market forces and dynamics should just turn around and succumb to your desire for a job just so you won't be depressed seems quite silly to me.
  - ericd 12y ago
    Governments can change the dynamics of global market forces (tariffs are a good example of this). I don't think it's silly to lobby your government to change things to benefit you and other citizens.
mcantelon 12y ago
>these young people are far better off than the generation before Which generation are you thinking of? That doesn't ring true. Things started going sideways for my generation (generation X) and then globalization happened and now automation is happening. Tech has made things better for a small subset of workers, but not everyone is suited to tech work. Globalization and automation are significant changes.

digitalengineer 12y ago

I'd like to share this. I've read it a long time ago and it's about the disappearing middle class in Argentina during the crisis of the 2000: Notes about the middle class falling, from a Student of Architecture ...This, this was important, a moment where the life we once knew stopped existing, and a group of students, in a class room that looked like and abandoned building, realized it, all 60 of us at the same time. We understood it the same way a kid understands photosynthesis: Because a teacher coldly explained it to us, even used graphics… It happened 4 years ago, almost a year after the December 2001 crisis. It was a social studies class and this teacher, don’t remember if it was a he or a she, was explaining the different kinds of social pyramids. We even had a text book with those darn, cruel pyramids! The first pyramid explained the basic society. A pyramid with two horizontal lines, dividing those on top (high social class) those in the middle (middle class) and the bottom of the pyramid (the poor, proletarian). The teacher explained that the middle of the pyramid, the middle class, acted as a cushion between the rich and the poor, taking care of the social stress. The second pyramid had a big middle section, this was the pyramid that represents 1st world countries. One where the bottom is very thin and arrows show that there is a possibility to go from low to middle class, and from middle to the top of the social pyramid. Our teacher explained that this was the classic, democratic capitalist society, and that on countries such as Europeans one, socialists, the pyramid was very similar but a little more flat, meaning that here is a big middle section, middle class, and small high and low class. There is little difference between the three of them. The third pyramid showed the communist society. Where arrows from the low and middle class tried to reach the top but they bounced off the line. A small high society and one big low society, cushioned by a minimal middle class section of pyramid. Then we turned the page and saw the darned fourth pyramid. This one had arrows from the middle class dropping to the low, poor class. “What is this?” Some of us asked. The teacher looked at us. “This is us” “It’s the collapsed country, a country that turns into 3rd world country like in pyramid five where there is almost no middle class to speak, one huge low, poor class , and a very small, very rich, top class.” “What are those arrows that go from the middle to the bottom of the pyramid?” Someone asked. You could hear a pin drop. “That is middle class turning into poor”. I won’t lie, no one cried, though people rubbed their faces, held their heads and their breath. No one cried, but we all knew at that very moment that all we thought, all we took for granted, simply was not going to happen. “You see, the income from the middle class is not enough to function as middle class any more. Some from the top class fall to middle class, but the vast majority of the middle class turns into poor” Said the teacher. I don’t know how many people in that room suddenly understood that he/she was poor. The teacher continued “You see, we have a middle class that suddenly turns to poor, creating a society of basically poor people, there is no more middle class to cushion tensions any more. Middle class suddenly discovers that they are overqualified for the jobs they can find and have to settle for anything they can obtain, therefore unemployment sky rockets: too much to offer, too little demand. You see they prepare, study for a job they are not going to get. You kids, you are studying Architecture because you simply wish to do so. Only 3 or 4 percent of you will actually find a job related to architecture.” We all sat there, letting it all sink in. After a few months, it all proved to be true. Even the amount of students that dropped out of college increased to at least 50%. They either so no point in studying something that would not make much of a difference in their future salaries, had no money to keep themselves in college, or simply had to drop college to work and support their families. (Edit: spelling)

mbenjaminsmith 12y ago

Apart from people who are mentally ill (an immediate family member included) I have very little sympathy for young people who can't find their own way. I'm pushing 40 and have older siblings in their 50s. Only one of them went to college right out of high school (more went later on when they could afford to pay for it) and the others joined the military to get a start in the world. All of my siblings -- minus the one under lifetime treatment for depression -- are successful today. They all have fulfilling careers and healthy families. None of them had it easy. My parents (begrudgingly) paid for (most of) my college. There was quite of bit of resentment in my family as I had grown up assuming that I would go to college and someone would pay for it, a fairly common belief at the time, at least among my peers. After changing majors a couple of times my parents told me I was on my own. I was angry at first and then I started a small business with some friends, worked hard and finished. After college I moved to another country and worked hard to get a career-path job. After that I worked hard starting my own company in that field. Apart from the degree my parents helped pay for I did it all on my own steam. Those decisions I made -- finishing school, moving to another country, quitting a job to start a company -- those were the ones that defined my life and paved the way for the things that I enjoy today. (I'm not suggesting I've arrived anywhere, just that I've acquired the tools to live a fulfilling life.) Whenever I meet young people (and by young I mean just out of college) I'm sometimes very impressed though I'm often shocked at how much they expect from the world. The impressive ones seem to get it and are working hard either on their own businesses or taking the most aggressive route through graduate school somewhere interesting -- doing what it takes to carve out a niche. The ones that don't impress me think that getting a degree (or even not getting one) means they're going to have a comfortable life, free of hardship. It's not just young people though. I see a lot of people my age who cynically pick up a paycheck every month in a field they're not passionate about, that they're not truly invested in. Then they completely fall apart because they "got downsized" and they go frantic on FB looking for a lifeline. These are the same people at different stages in life. If you're willing to dig in and make your own way then you might get what you want out of life. If not then don't be surprised when life goes sideways.

ericd 12y ago
If you're pushing 40, that means that you came of age in the boom years of the mid 90s. Do you see how that could be very different from those coming of age now?

toddh 12y ago

Such feelings are ages old. Friedrich Nietzsche thought of these feelings as a long sickness that he was eventually cured of. He suggested laughter to be a reaction to the sense of existential loneliness and mortality that only humans feel. Having a job is a good thing. But that won't make the feelings go away. It just hides them for a time.

clockworkelf 12y ago

That is because they don't actually have anything to live for. Welcome to the technocracy.