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> Predictability, and my own risk. Bingo. I can believe this is an issue for discussion in Idaho, but in urban environments (where I assume most reside)? A bic

> Predictability, and my own risk. Bingo. I can believe this is an issue for discussion in Idaho, but in urban environments (where I assume most reside)? A bicyclist is a bag of calcium and water perched on some welded aluminum pipes swimming in a sea of tanks. When you're driving a car, predictability and muscle memory are pretty much the only thing that keeps you alive and anything out of the ordinary is a danger that you must prepare for and avoid. As an LA bicyclist who learned to drive after moving to SF (oh the irony), I find behavior like this absurd. Physics doesn't care about your right of way and while a crumple zone can protect a driver in even some of the most gruesome accidents, few 150 pound blobs of jelly can survive getting flung across the street. The worst part is that in some situations, there is nothing you can do to avoid hitting a biker who runs a red light through the intersection. I've been in a situation twice now where swerving to avoid a biker put other people in the intersection in danger, people who were innocent and could have lost their lives. One of my worst nightmares is hitting someone, anyone, with my car but at the end of the day, it is my responsibility to keep my car under control and everyone else on the street out of unnecessary danger. When a bicyclist flaunts the basic rules of traffic, rules meant to keep people safe in a world of multi-ton vehicles, they force drivers into situations that often end badly only for the person without the airbags.

shkkmo 13y ago
What is your point? > few 150 pound blobs of jelly can survive getting flung across the street. Which is why I put more effort into riding safely and defensively than I do in riding predictably. This is why (depending on traffics, shoulder, lighting, pedestrian visibility and driveways) there are many situations where I will go onto the sidewalk with my bike. (The main reason I do this is to use walk signals rather than risking following traffic laws and using the left turn lane.) > a biker who runs a red light through the intersection. They did not follow the idaho stop law. I think you are arguing against a strawman. > When a bicyclist flaunts the basic rules of traffic, rules meant to keep people safe in a world of multi-ton vehicles, they force drivers into situations that often end badly only for the person without the airbags. Which is why we should establish rules of the road for bicyclists that make sense, and will be easily followed by the majority of bicyclists. Then we enforce those rules against the 5% of arrogant jerks. > When you're driving a car, predictability and muscle memory are pretty much the only thing that keeps you alive and anything out of the ordinary is a danger that you must prepare for and avoid. Predictability helps, but: Paying attention to your surroundings and not relying too heavily on predictability is how you avoid accidents and hurting people. This is true with or without bicyclists on the road. Solely relying on muscle memory and predicability means you are a very BAD driver.
- dredmorbius 13y ago
  Which is why I put more effort into riding safely and defensively than I do in riding predictably. These aren't mutually exclusive. Nor is situational awareness, which you mention. I'll hog the lane if not doing so increases risks or increases the likelihood I'll have to respond unpredictably to sudden events (doors opening, pedestrians, vehicles entering or leaving the lane). I do agree generally that a slightly laxer set of regulations for bikes may well apply. My experience with urban cyclists suggests that the line is rather short of where many of them place it.
  - shkkmo 13y ago
    > My experience with urban cyclists suggests that the line is rather short of where many of them place it. I have a suspicion that this is the case of a few bad apples and selection bias. I don't think the majority push the rules much past what is described in the article. > I do agree generally that a slightly laxer set of regulations for bikes may well apply What do you think of the specific rules proposed in the article?
    - dredmorbius 13y ago
      While I agree it's not the majority, as with the case of drivers and h-bombs, just a few can ruin your whole day.
- akiselev 13y ago
  What's the strawman? Collision(Car + Bicyclist) = Dead or hurt bicyclist almost every single time. Is that in contention? Idaho can have it's Idaho stop, but in my big congested city I believe it's better and safer for everyone to keep green lights clear of any and all orthogonal traffic, especially when the odds of survival are so one sided and the gains so inconsequential. > Paying attention to your surroundings and not relying too heavily on predictability is how you avoid accidents and hurting people. This is true with or without bicyclists on the road. > Solely relying on muscle memory and predicability means you are a very BAD driver. I can't even... what are you saying? Paying attention to your surroundings is how you predict (which is why the predictability of other animate actors is important) and muscle memory is how you get better at dealing with all situations, mundane or extreme, through practice and experience.
dredmorbius 13y ago
Another point about bicycle safety: my worst wrecks (or near misses) have frequently been very unpredictable (though with some foresight and experience a few were foreseeble): wiping out turning across traffic as I crossed the grease strip on a warm summer afternoon (fortunately no traffic imminent), multiple parts failures (freewheels, cranks, frame, handlebars, spokes), gravel and road debris. The parts failures in particular tend to come on suddenly, and in a few cases occurred within a few days, or sometimes a few minutes, of circumstances which would have been far, far worse. After a while it's enough to convince even an enthusiastic cyclist to slow down, check things over carefully, and wear a helmet. NB: it's "flouts", not "flaunts".

shkkmo 13y ago

What is your point? > few 150 pound blobs of jelly can survive getting flung across the street. Which is why I put more effort into riding safely and defensively than I do in riding predictably. This is why (depending on traffics, shoulder, lighting, pedestrian visibility and driveways) there are many situations where I will go onto the sidewalk with my bike. (The main reason I do this is to use walk signals rather than risking following traffic laws and using the left turn lane.) > a biker who runs a red light through the intersection. They did not follow the idaho stop law. I think you are arguing against a strawman. > When a bicyclist flaunts the basic rules of traffic, rules meant to keep people safe in a world of multi-ton vehicles, they force drivers into situations that often end badly only for the person without the airbags. Which is why we should establish rules of the road for bicyclists that make sense, and will be easily followed by the majority of bicyclists. Then we enforce those rules against the 5% of arrogant jerks. > When you're driving a car, predictability and muscle memory are pretty much the only thing that keeps you alive and anything out of the ordinary is a danger that you must prepare for and avoid. Predictability helps, but: Paying attention to your surroundings and not relying too heavily on predictability is how you avoid accidents and hurting people. This is true with or without bicyclists on the road. Solely relying on muscle memory and predicability means you are a very BAD driver.

dredmorbius 13y ago
Which is why I put more effort into riding safely and defensively than I do in riding predictably. These aren't mutually exclusive. Nor is situational awareness, which you mention. I'll hog the lane if not doing so increases risks or increases the likelihood I'll have to respond unpredictably to sudden events (doors opening, pedestrians, vehicles entering or leaving the lane). I do agree generally that a slightly laxer set of regulations for bikes may well apply. My experience with urban cyclists suggests that the line is rather short of where many of them place it.
- shkkmo 13y ago
  > My experience with urban cyclists suggests that the line is rather short of where many of them place it. I have a suspicion that this is the case of a few bad apples and selection bias. I don't think the majority push the rules much past what is described in the article. > I do agree generally that a slightly laxer set of regulations for bikes may well apply What do you think of the specific rules proposed in the article?
  - dredmorbius 13y ago
    While I agree it's not the majority, as with the case of drivers and h-bombs, just a few can ruin your whole day.
akiselev 13y ago
What's the strawman? Collision(Car + Bicyclist) = Dead or hurt bicyclist almost every single time. Is that in contention? Idaho can have it's Idaho stop, but in my big congested city I believe it's better and safer for everyone to keep green lights clear of any and all orthogonal traffic, especially when the odds of survival are so one sided and the gains so inconsequential. > Paying attention to your surroundings and not relying too heavily on predictability is how you avoid accidents and hurting people. This is true with or without bicyclists on the road. > Solely relying on muscle memory and predicability means you are a very BAD driver. I can't even... what are you saying? Paying attention to your surroundings is how you predict (which is why the predictability of other animate actors is important) and muscle memory is how you get better at dealing with all situations, mundane or extreme, through practice and experience.

dredmorbius 13y ago

Another point about bicycle safety: my worst wrecks (or near misses) have frequently been very unpredictable (though with some foresight and experience a few were foreseeble): wiping out turning across traffic as I crossed the grease strip on a warm summer afternoon (fortunately no traffic imminent), multiple parts failures (freewheels, cranks, frame, handlebars, spokes), gravel and road debris. The parts failures in particular tend to come on suddenly, and in a few cases occurred within a few days, or sometimes a few minutes, of circumstances which would have been far, far worse. After a while it's enough to convince even an enthusiastic cyclist to slow down, check things over carefully, and wear a helmet. NB: it's "flouts", not "flaunts".