8 ms·

A psychological gem was dropped in the middle of the article: People in her circumstances have their world suddenly inverted, and there is nothing in the manne

A psychological gem was dropped in the middle of the article: People in her circumstances have their world suddenly inverted, and there is nothing in the manner of their taking – no narrative of sacrifice, or enduring for a greater good – to help them derive meaning from it. They must somehow find meaning in their predicament – or mentally detach themselves from their day-to-day reality, which is a monumental task when alone. This is the same conclusion drawn by Dr. Victor Frankl in his excellent Man's Search for Meaning. His experience in Nazi concentration camps led him to conclude that the only way to fend off complete apathy was to try to find a personal meaning in your experience. Even apparently meaningless suffering, he said, can be made meaningful depending on your response: you can maintain your human dignity in the face of overwhelming suffering, and by not forgetting yourself, you can be an affirmation of the strength of humankind.

thom 12y ago
These are similar to the arguments Camus makes in the Myth of Sisyphus (on the minor philosophical point of whether or not one should kill oneself).
richardlblair 12y ago
> you can be an affirmation of the strength of humankind. Well, that gave me goosebumps.
- richardlblair 12y ago
  Downvotes? HAHA, HN, you make me laugh.
- delluminatus 12y ago
  Thanks! In all seriousness, I had the same response when I read Man's Search for Meaning the first time. The first half of the book describes, in clinical detail (Frankl was a psychiatrist) the details of daily life in Auschwitz and other Nazi camps. I don't need to say that they are disturbing, but you might be surprised to hear that they're also uplifting. The book will make you cry. Not because it's sad but because it's a reminder that although humans are capable of causing great evil, we're also capable of looking that evil in the face, even through our own powerlessness, without turning away. We dish it out but we can take it, too.
3rd3 12y ago
I cannot understand why people still decide to base their motivations on slippery concepts like the meaning of life or on some romantized, conjectured intrinsic values of our species. It seems to me that there are much better mental models of our existence that can help us to organize our thoughts and lifes, most notably things that are derived from the theory of evolution, neuroscience and from behavioral biology.
- v3rt 12y ago
  In this case, probably because when you're being tortured, it's small comfort to know how the synapses of your tormentors' brains are firing. Things like defiance in the face of adversity or finding meaning in life seem to be universal across cultures, and a lot more fundamental to the way our brains work than something like scientific understanding.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- saraid216 12y ago
  Because such slippery concepts make it more possible to survive adversity. It's almost as if it was a trait selected by evolutionary pressure because those were the mental models that helped their users survive.
- mcphilip 12y ago
  I choose to use nonrational (not irrational or rational, necessarily, but indeterminate) thoughts like "My life has purpose" as sources of motivation since it shortcuts the process of extracting meaning from theories that take a great deal of time to research and internalize. I am not a rigorous accountant of truth in my worldview. I choose a worldview that works for me since I don't have the time or energy to truly consider all options.
- StefanKarpinski 12y ago
  "The very meaninglessness of life forces man to create his own meaning." "The most terrifying fact about the universe is not that it is hostile but that it is indifferent; but if we can come to terms with this indifference and accept the challenges of life within the boundaries of death — however mutable man may be able to make them — our existence as a species can have genuine meaning and fulfillment. However vast the darkness, we must supply our own light." – Stanley Kubrick, http://genius.cat-v.org/stanley-kubrick/interviews/playboy-1968 http://genius.cat-v.org/stanley-kubrick/interviews/playboy-1...
at-fates-hands 12y ago
I've had several members of my family go through addiction and have dealt with clinical depression. I gave Frankl's book to one of my older sisters and it had a profound impact on her. It was no silver bullet to her recovery, but it made her look at life completely differently. Also, in the movie, "I Am Legend" you can see what happens when we're deprived of interaction with other human beings. Will Smith's character goes through seemingly humorous interactions with mannequins in the video store at the beginning of the movie. Although people were snickering in the movie theater, it occurred to me that he was simply trying to create meaning for his own life, even if in some nonsensical way, to avoid going crazy because there were no more "humans" to interact with. It was a constant theme throughout the movie and I'm not sure too many people got that.
PavlovsCat 12y ago
Here is a bit from Robert Antelme's "L'Espèce humaine", badly translated by me from the German version ("Das Menschengeschlecht") into English: "On Sunday we have to do something, it cannot go on like this. We have to get out of the hunger. We have to talk to the people. There are some among them who are rapidly deteriorating, they are letting themselves go, they let themselves get destroyed. There are even some among them who forgot why they are here. We have to talk with each other." This happened in the tunnel, and was carried on from mule to mule. In this way a language started to exist, which was no longer the language of cursing or something thrown up from the stomach, and also not the barking for a cup of food. This language here created a distance between the human and the muddy, yellow earth, so that he was no longer dug into it, but its master, master even over the empty pocket of his stomach. In the pit, in the bent body, in the deformed head, the world opened."
kijin 12y ago
> They must somehow find meaning in their predicament This helps you keep your sanity, but when the same thing happens on a large scale, it can also cause all sorts of social problems. There are many cultures that valorize unnecessary suffering for the sake of suffering, just because it has always been a part of life. Often this takes the form of a rite of passage, such as genital mutilation, mandatory military service, and ridiculous amount of cramming in high school (especially in East Asia). Work that serves absolutely no purpose other than putting food on your table might fall into this category. People often romanticize such activities, they think there's some profound meaning and honor in enduring them, and they even feel ashamed if they fall short of the societal norm. But in many cases, the illusion of honor is just a collective coping strategy. Koreans valorize studying 18 hours a day because they know of no other way to learn. Americans valorize full-time employment because most of them are stuck doing it. Soldiers everywhere brag about how brutal their training was because it makes them feel like their dick is bigger. In every instance, the valorization and romanticization gets in the way of progress. If you as an individual discover meaning in something that everyone else ignores or takes for granted, that's great, you've become a better person through that experience. But if you see a bunch of people doing it together, it's usually a recipe for conservatism. The ultimate strength of humankind does not lie in our ability to endure pain. It lies in our ability to change the world so that nobody needs to endure the same kind of pain anymore.
- savv 12y ago
  Thanks for the insights. > Work that serves absolutely no purpose other than putting food on your table might fall into this category. Have you read 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance'[1]? The discussion on the concept of Value may challenge this idea that you have put forward. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_and_the_Art_of_Motorcycle_Maintenance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_and_the_Art_of_Motorcycle_M...
  - kijin 12y ago
    I don't have any problem with individuals finding value wherever they want to. I might disagree with them, but that's OK. I only have a problem when a certain interpretation of value becomes an oppressive social norm, i.e. when people force once another to adopt their interpretation and no other.
QuantumChaos 12y ago
As a counterpoint, in "If This is a Man", Auschwitz survivor Primo Levi describes his inability to find meaning in his experiences, and a lack of triumph of the human spirit, in himself and other inmates. As the title implies, the book claims that not only did the Nazi's attempt to dehumanize the concentration camp inmates, but that the succeeded. This was sufficiently confronting that the US title was changed to "Survival in Auschwitz" EDIT: fixed typo
- ScottBurson 12y ago
  In case anyone else is confused by the typo in the title -- it should be "If This Is a Man".

thom 12y ago

These are similar to the arguments Camus makes in the Myth of Sisyphus (on the minor philosophical point of whether or not one should kill oneself).

richardlblair 12y ago

> you can be an affirmation of the strength of humankind. Well, that gave me goosebumps.

richardlblair 12y ago
Downvotes? HAHA, HN, you make me laugh.
delluminatus 12y ago
Thanks! In all seriousness, I had the same response when I read Man's Search for Meaning the first time. The first half of the book describes, in clinical detail (Frankl was a psychiatrist) the details of daily life in Auschwitz and other Nazi camps. I don't need to say that they are disturbing, but you might be surprised to hear that they're also uplifting. The book will make you cry. Not because it's sad but because it's a reminder that although humans are capable of causing great evil, we're also capable of looking that evil in the face, even through our own powerlessness, without turning away. We dish it out but we can take it, too.

3rd3 12y ago

I cannot understand why people still decide to base their motivations on slippery concepts like the meaning of life or on some romantized, conjectured intrinsic values of our species. It seems to me that there are much better mental models of our existence that can help us to organize our thoughts and lifes, most notably things that are derived from the theory of evolution, neuroscience and from behavioral biology.

v3rt 12y ago
In this case, probably because when you're being tortured, it's small comfort to know how the synapses of your tormentors' brains are firing. Things like defiance in the face of adversity or finding meaning in life seem to be universal across cultures, and a lot more fundamental to the way our brains work than something like scientific understanding.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
saraid216 12y ago
Because such slippery concepts make it more possible to survive adversity. It's almost as if it was a trait selected by evolutionary pressure because those were the mental models that helped their users survive.
mcphilip 12y ago
I choose to use nonrational (not irrational or rational, necessarily, but indeterminate) thoughts like "My life has purpose" as sources of motivation since it shortcuts the process of extracting meaning from theories that take a great deal of time to research and internalize. I am not a rigorous accountant of truth in my worldview. I choose a worldview that works for me since I don't have the time or energy to truly consider all options.
StefanKarpinski 12y ago
"The very meaninglessness of life forces man to create his own meaning." "The most terrifying fact about the universe is not that it is hostile but that it is indifferent; but if we can come to terms with this indifference and accept the challenges of life within the boundaries of death — however mutable man may be able to make them — our existence as a species can have genuine meaning and fulfillment. However vast the darkness, we must supply our own light." – Stanley Kubrick, http://genius.cat-v.org/stanley-kubrick/interviews/playboy-1968 http://genius.cat-v.org/stanley-kubrick/interviews/playboy-1...

at-fates-hands 12y ago

I've had several members of my family go through addiction and have dealt with clinical depression. I gave Frankl's book to one of my older sisters and it had a profound impact on her. It was no silver bullet to her recovery, but it made her look at life completely differently. Also, in the movie, "I Am Legend" you can see what happens when we're deprived of interaction with other human beings. Will Smith's character goes through seemingly humorous interactions with mannequins in the video store at the beginning of the movie. Although people were snickering in the movie theater, it occurred to me that he was simply trying to create meaning for his own life, even if in some nonsensical way, to avoid going crazy because there were no more "humans" to interact with. It was a constant theme throughout the movie and I'm not sure too many people got that.

PavlovsCat 12y ago

Here is a bit from Robert Antelme's "L'Espèce humaine", badly translated by me from the German version ("Das Menschengeschlecht") into English: "On Sunday we have to do something, it cannot go on like this. We have to get out of the hunger. We have to talk to the people. There are some among them who are rapidly deteriorating, they are letting themselves go, they let themselves get destroyed. There are even some among them who forgot why they are here. We have to talk with each other." This happened in the tunnel, and was carried on from mule to mule. In this way a language started to exist, which was no longer the language of cursing or something thrown up from the stomach, and also not the barking for a cup of food. This language here created a distance between the human and the muddy, yellow earth, so that he was no longer dug into it, but its master, master even over the empty pocket of his stomach. In the pit, in the bent body, in the deformed head, the world opened."

kijin 12y ago

> They must somehow find meaning in their predicament This helps you keep your sanity, but when the same thing happens on a large scale, it can also cause all sorts of social problems. There are many cultures that valorize unnecessary suffering for the sake of suffering, just because it has always been a part of life. Often this takes the form of a rite of passage, such as genital mutilation, mandatory military service, and ridiculous amount of cramming in high school (especially in East Asia). Work that serves absolutely no purpose other than putting food on your table might fall into this category. People often romanticize such activities, they think there's some profound meaning and honor in enduring them, and they even feel ashamed if they fall short of the societal norm. But in many cases, the illusion of honor is just a collective coping strategy. Koreans valorize studying 18 hours a day because they know of no other way to learn. Americans valorize full-time employment because most of them are stuck doing it. Soldiers everywhere brag about how brutal their training was because it makes them feel like their dick is bigger. In every instance, the valorization and romanticization gets in the way of progress. If you as an individual discover meaning in something that everyone else ignores or takes for granted, that's great, you've become a better person through that experience. But if you see a bunch of people doing it together, it's usually a recipe for conservatism. The ultimate strength of humankind does not lie in our ability to endure pain. It lies in our ability to change the world so that nobody needs to endure the same kind of pain anymore.

savv 12y ago
Thanks for the insights. > Work that serves absolutely no purpose other than putting food on your table might fall into this category. Have you read 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance'[1]? The discussion on the concept of Value may challenge this idea that you have put forward. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_and_the_Art_of_Motorcycle_Maintenance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_and_the_Art_of_Motorcycle_M...
- kijin 12y ago
  I don't have any problem with individuals finding value wherever they want to. I might disagree with them, but that's OK. I only have a problem when a certain interpretation of value becomes an oppressive social norm, i.e. when people force once another to adopt their interpretation and no other.

QuantumChaos 12y ago

As a counterpoint, in "If This is a Man", Auschwitz survivor Primo Levi describes his inability to find meaning in his experiences, and a lack of triumph of the human spirit, in himself and other inmates. As the title implies, the book claims that not only did the Nazi's attempt to dehumanize the concentration camp inmates, but that the succeeded. This was sufficiently confronting that the US title was changed to "Survival in Auschwitz" EDIT: fixed typo

ScottBurson 12y ago
In case anyone else is confused by the typo in the title -- it should be "If This Is a Man".