41 ms·

Show HN: Updn – HN/Reddit-style site where stories, votes, tips use Bitcoin

97 points by aaron-lebo 12y ago

herendin 12y ago
I wonder if it would be an effective gaming strategy to build momentum for my posts by upvoting them myself, and hope to reap a profit when other people add their votes
- aaron-lebo 12y ago
  I suspect it would. Something like this in practice would need some kind of deterrent for that and other scamming.
- ZirconCode 12y ago
  I have the feeling that it would become a cesspool of such and similar strategies.
- elwell 12y ago
  Yes, it could all boil down to an instance of Adsense.
terhechte 12y ago
I wrote something similar as a service for DogeCoin with an API that can be integrated in any kind of site. I.e. you could let people upvote anything on your site by utilizing the API. If anybody is interested in using this on his/her site, feel free to contact me. It is currently in private beta (sort of).
- livingparadox 12y ago
  I'm interested in seeing where it goes. Do you have a website for it yet?
  - terhechte 12y ago
    No, not yet I got sidetracked by other projects, but once I have a website, I'll post it on HN.
- sroerick 12y ago
  You should post to the dogecoin or dogecoindev subreddits. I would hazard a guess someone there would be interested in this.
Sir_Cmpwn 12y ago
"Comments are free" seems like a poor choice. Comments should be the most expensive, in my opinion.
- aaron-lebo 12y ago
  Do you mind explaining why? I wanted to give people who don't have Bitcoin a way to get involved without having to register through an exchange or use localbitcoins, etc.
  - Sir_Cmpwn 12y ago
    Anything to fight the "don't read the comments" attitude people have adopted when using the internet. By requiring a tangible investment in your comment, it helps ensure people will make more succinct threads and spend less time trolling.
    - krapp 12y ago
      Trolls may well be willing to pay to play, and corporations definitely will, but it seems to me that it might accidentally dampen attempts at casual or in-depth conversation. The fewer people who participate in a community, or become invested in it through interacting with other users, the quicker it'll die.
shazow 12y ago
If anybody wants to see how this played out in 2010-2011, search for "Witcoin": https://www.google.com/search?q=witcoin https://www.google.com/search?q=witcoin At the peak it was a neat site, and some folks made a bit of money. If I recall correctly, there as a bit of a problem where NSFW posts were more profitable than most other kinds of posts. For some reason, the creator was unable to keep it running and didn't want to hand it off, so it was shut down. It worked by depositing Bitcoins which got converted into "Witcoins", an off-chain micro-transaction credit system. You could convert back into Bitcoins at any time. I suspect the micro-transaction aspect of it was not as harmful as one would expect. The model seemed to work at the modest scale it grew to.
- gpmcadam 12y ago
  See also https://flattr.com/ https://flattr.com/
- hayksaakian 12y ago
  One solution: hide the nsfw tag by default, make it opt in like reddit.
Dirlewanger 12y ago
As if a hivemind site like reddit (that's already littered with blatant advertisement posts) wasn't enough, this one proclaims, "Let's just skip the bullshit...you can buy all the top posts!" Seriously people, what actual beneficence will this bring to the table?
- smokeyj 12y ago
  Grrr, technology make Dirlewanger mad! Having readers tipping histories encoded in a blockchain could make it easier to filter out spam via network analysis algos. Large chunks of money coming from brand new addresses wouldn't carry as much weight as old wallets with similar patterns as your own.
  - Dirlewanger 12y ago
    One can put in all the safeguards they want, but you really underestimate how far private entities with seemingly-bottomless coffers will go to get a message across, especially if its traffic is lush with its target demographic. I'm not trying to be pessimistic; this shit happens everyday on reddit, and a variant of this scenario that went too far sent Digg to the grave.
    - smokeyj 12y ago
      I haven't given it much thought, but that seems like a reason to support a blockchain based voting system. If votes are transparently logged then end users can rely on their own readers/clients to find relevant content. As you upvote and downvote you can train the client to learn which wallets/tips are credible/relevant and which aren't. edit: I'm basically describing pandora for content based on blockchain data -- where anyone is free to modify the learning algos. Can someone please make that happen? Thanks.
    - sroerick 12y ago
      I think you're raising great points, and I think this is a really valid concern. However, I'd counter it thus: I think the shilling that happens on reddit is primarily acheived through the use of sock puppetry. I think casting upvotes with Bitcoin is a decent way to try and counter this effect.
command_line 12y ago
As a competitor, this is exciting. Updn is effectively what valME.io [1] does (although valME has many more bells and whistles, doesn't require someone technical to install and run it, uses bitcoin and PayPal, etc.). It is especially encouraging to see this open sourced. One of the goals of valME is to find ways where content consumers can bypass the behemoth publishing and media industries and financially support our favorite content providers directly. Could micropayments to bloggers, authors, writers, musicians, et al. not only add-up to an important stream of income but also provided significant competition to the publishing oligopolies? I'd like to see the concept taken even further. For example, search engines: could upvotes/downvotes be used for search algorithm rankings, upending the SEO industry? How about books? What if authors published their books on open platforms where readers could upvote and/or tip the author as they read (e.g., "I really enjoyed that chapter, so I'm going to upvote it and give the author a few cents/bitcoins")? How about applied to the king of question/answer sites - StackOverflow? I know there are plenty of SO coders who deserve more than our non-tangible upvotes for the time and effort they saved us. Music? Upvote the song and give revenues directly to the band, bypassing the big media houses. Advertising is currently the primary source of revenue for most websites and content providers. Micropayments based on voting and tipping could change this revenue model. What would happen if it did? Would content quality increase? Would it become easier for unknown content providers to gain visibility? Would search results become more useful? Would companies like Facebook and Google be forced to change their business models? Would copyright legislation become less relevant? Technologies like Updn and valME are about upending the entire revenue model for news, social media, blogs, forums, and search engines - advertising. They could give unknown, quality content providers a real, viable alternative to working for the mainstream media or writing blog posts that aren't even getting a few pennies from Google AdSense. They could take power away from the entertainment lobbying companies. They could even help encourage teens to write and create outside of 140 characters, a snap of a camera, or a silly Facebook post. But, philosophically, they can also help encourage a few thoughts that apply outside of what we do online. There is too often a belief that someone should get something for nothing; get something without effort; get something without paying for it; get something without trading for it. People forget that there is always a price for value. They forget that someone, eventually, has to pay. The Internet is a hotbed for reinforcing the idea of something for nothing. We need to reduce the power of advertising dollars on the Web. We need to give content creators a different viable distribution channel to make money in order to reduce the power of copyright lobbying efforts. Directionally, Updn is a great way to do that and, as a competitor, I hope it is successful and we see more like it. [1] valME.io - http://valme.io/c/gettingstarted/faq/kqqqs/how-valme-works/ http://valme.io/c/gettingstarted/faq/kqqqs/how-valme-works/
jhrobert 12y ago
Quid délégation, liquid demo style?
3rd3 12y ago
It would be great if one could somehow ensure that the original content creators would receive the money (similar to http://flattr.com http://flattr.com), not the people who submit links. That would require some moderation though. I think it's fine to receive only internet points for submitting a link instead of materialistic value. If the author of a submission does not accept payment the donations could be used to break even with server maintenance and moderation costs.
joelthelion 12y ago
How will you handle spam?
- krapp 12y ago
  A system like this might encourage spam, as the more popular it becomes, the more it's worth the incentive for spammers to "participate." On the one hand, there's a lot about this kind of setup I don't like - but on the other, monetizing spam and trolls does appeal to me on some level. http://xkcd.com/810/ http://xkcd.com/810/
redthrowaway 12y ago
Seems like an interesting idea, but I think you would have been far better off supporting doge out of the box. The dogecoin community loves tipping. It's pretty much the only thing doge is used for. I suspect they'd be far more eager early adopters than bitcoin users.
brotoss 12y ago
Have you seen the kind of crap that gets upvotes on reddit? It's all low-effort content and rehashed memes. Maybe if downvotes were free this could work.
- dpcucoreinfo 12y ago
  If people are willing to pay for reposts who are we to deny them that?
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
microcolonel 12y ago
It'll be interesting when somebody says "My three cents" instead of "My two cents".

97 points by aaron-lebo 12y ago

I wonder if it would be an effective gaming strategy to build momentum for my posts by upvoting them myself, and hope to reap a profit when other people add their votes

aaron-lebo 12y ago
I suspect it would. Something like this in practice would need some kind of deterrent for that and other scamming.
ZirconCode 12y ago
I have the feeling that it would become a cesspool of such and similar strategies.
elwell 12y ago
Yes, it could all boil down to an instance of Adsense.

terhechte 12y ago

I wrote something similar as a service for DogeCoin with an API that can be integrated in any kind of site. I.e. you could let people upvote anything on your site by utilizing the API. If anybody is interested in using this on his/her site, feel free to contact me. It is currently in private beta (sort of).

livingparadox 12y ago
I'm interested in seeing where it goes. Do you have a website for it yet?
- terhechte 12y ago
  No, not yet I got sidetracked by other projects, but once I have a website, I'll post it on HN.
sroerick 12y ago
You should post to the dogecoin or dogecoindev subreddits. I would hazard a guess someone there would be interested in this.

Sir_Cmpwn 12y ago

"Comments are free" seems like a poor choice. Comments should be the most expensive, in my opinion.

aaron-lebo 12y ago
Do you mind explaining why? I wanted to give people who don't have Bitcoin a way to get involved without having to register through an exchange or use localbitcoins, etc.
- Sir_Cmpwn 12y ago
  Anything to fight the "don't read the comments" attitude people have adopted when using the internet. By requiring a tangible investment in your comment, it helps ensure people will make more succinct threads and spend less time trolling.
  - krapp 12y ago
    Trolls may well be willing to pay to play, and corporations definitely will, but it seems to me that it might accidentally dampen attempts at casual or in-depth conversation. The fewer people who participate in a community, or become invested in it through interacting with other users, the quicker it'll die.

shazow 12y ago

If anybody wants to see how this played out in 2010-2011, search for "Witcoin": https://www.google.com/search?q=witcoin https://www.google.com/search?q=witcoin At the peak it was a neat site, and some folks made a bit of money. If I recall correctly, there as a bit of a problem where NSFW posts were more profitable than most other kinds of posts. For some reason, the creator was unable to keep it running and didn't want to hand it off, so it was shut down. It worked by depositing Bitcoins which got converted into "Witcoins", an off-chain micro-transaction credit system. You could convert back into Bitcoins at any time. I suspect the micro-transaction aspect of it was not as harmful as one would expect. The model seemed to work at the modest scale it grew to.

gpmcadam 12y ago
See also https://flattr.com/ https://flattr.com/
hayksaakian 12y ago
One solution: hide the nsfw tag by default, make it opt in like reddit.

Dirlewanger 12y ago

As if a hivemind site like reddit (that's already littered with blatant advertisement posts) wasn't enough, this one proclaims, "Let's just skip the bullshit...you can buy all the top posts!" Seriously people, what actual beneficence will this bring to the table?

smokeyj 12y ago
Grrr, technology make Dirlewanger mad! Having readers tipping histories encoded in a blockchain could make it easier to filter out spam via network analysis algos. Large chunks of money coming from brand new addresses wouldn't carry as much weight as old wallets with similar patterns as your own.
- Dirlewanger 12y ago
  One can put in all the safeguards they want, but you really underestimate how far private entities with seemingly-bottomless coffers will go to get a message across, especially if its traffic is lush with its target demographic. I'm not trying to be pessimistic; this shit happens everyday on reddit, and a variant of this scenario that went too far sent Digg to the grave.
  - smokeyj 12y ago
    I haven't given it much thought, but that seems like a reason to support a blockchain based voting system. If votes are transparently logged then end users can rely on their own readers/clients to find relevant content. As you upvote and downvote you can train the client to learn which wallets/tips are credible/relevant and which aren't. edit: I'm basically describing pandora for content based on blockchain data -- where anyone is free to modify the learning algos. Can someone please make that happen? Thanks.
  - sroerick 12y ago
    I think you're raising great points, and I think this is a really valid concern. However, I'd counter it thus: I think the shilling that happens on reddit is primarily acheived through the use of sock puppetry. I think casting upvotes with Bitcoin is a decent way to try and counter this effect.

command_line 12y ago

As a competitor, this is exciting. Updn is effectively what valME.io [1] does (although valME has many more bells and whistles, doesn't require someone technical to install and run it, uses bitcoin and PayPal, etc.). It is especially encouraging to see this open sourced. One of the goals of valME is to find ways where content consumers can bypass the behemoth publishing and media industries and financially support our favorite content providers directly. Could micropayments to bloggers, authors, writers, musicians, et al. not only add-up to an important stream of income but also provided significant competition to the publishing oligopolies? I'd like to see the concept taken even further. For example, search engines: could upvotes/downvotes be used for search algorithm rankings, upending the SEO industry? How about books? What if authors published their books on open platforms where readers could upvote and/or tip the author as they read (e.g., "I really enjoyed that chapter, so I'm going to upvote it and give the author a few cents/bitcoins")? How about applied to the king of question/answer sites - StackOverflow? I know there are plenty of SO coders who deserve more than our non-tangible upvotes for the time and effort they saved us. Music? Upvote the song and give revenues directly to the band, bypassing the big media houses. Advertising is currently the primary source of revenue for most websites and content providers. Micropayments based on voting and tipping could change this revenue model. What would happen if it did? Would content quality increase? Would it become easier for unknown content providers to gain visibility? Would search results become more useful? Would companies like Facebook and Google be forced to change their business models? Would copyright legislation become less relevant? Technologies like Updn and valME are about upending the entire revenue model for news, social media, blogs, forums, and search engines - advertising. They could give unknown, quality content providers a real, viable alternative to working for the mainstream media or writing blog posts that aren't even getting a few pennies from Google AdSense. They could take power away from the entertainment lobbying companies. They could even help encourage teens to write and create outside of 140 characters, a snap of a camera, or a silly Facebook post. But, philosophically, they can also help encourage a few thoughts that apply outside of what we do online. There is too often a belief that someone should get something for nothing; get something without effort; get something without paying for it; get something without trading for it. People forget that there is always a price for value. They forget that someone, eventually, has to pay. The Internet is a hotbed for reinforcing the idea of something for nothing. We need to reduce the power of advertising dollars on the Web. We need to give content creators a different viable distribution channel to make money in order to reduce the power of copyright lobbying efforts. Directionally, Updn is a great way to do that and, as a competitor, I hope it is successful and we see more like it. [1] valME.io - http://valme.io/c/gettingstarted/faq/kqqqs/how-valme-works/ http://valme.io/c/gettingstarted/faq/kqqqs/how-valme-works/

jhrobert 12y ago

Quid délégation, liquid demo style?

3rd3 12y ago

It would be great if one could somehow ensure that the original content creators would receive the money (similar to http://flattr.com http://flattr.com), not the people who submit links. That would require some moderation though. I think it's fine to receive only internet points for submitting a link instead of materialistic value. If the author of a submission does not accept payment the donations could be used to break even with server maintenance and moderation costs.

joelthelion 12y ago

How will you handle spam?

krapp 12y ago
A system like this might encourage spam, as the more popular it becomes, the more it's worth the incentive for spammers to "participate." On the one hand, there's a lot about this kind of setup I don't like - but on the other, monetizing spam and trolls does appeal to me on some level. http://xkcd.com/810/ http://xkcd.com/810/

redthrowaway 12y ago

Seems like an interesting idea, but I think you would have been far better off supporting doge out of the box. The dogecoin community loves tipping. It's pretty much the only thing doge is used for. I suspect they'd be far more eager early adopters than bitcoin users.

brotoss 12y ago

Have you seen the kind of crap that gets upvotes on reddit? It's all low-effort content and rehashed memes. Maybe if downvotes were free this could work.

dpcucoreinfo 12y ago
If people are willing to pay for reposts who are we to deny them that?

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

microcolonel 12y ago

It'll be interesting when somebody says "My three cents" instead of "My two cents".