6 ms·

Everyone keeps repeating the claim that "most users don't care" but I think the more accurate characterization is "most users don't understand". Teaching peopl

Everyone keeps repeating the claim that "most users don't care" but I think the more accurate characterization is "most users don't understand". Teaching people is much harder than blithely complaining about their motives, so I can understand the appeal to HN commenters, but I would have expected Mozilla to see above that.

danielweber 12y ago
Without responding to your specific point, many people say "people who disagree with me (just) don't understand," but in reality the people who disagree often have just as good an understanding of the basic facts, yet disagree anyway.
- npsimons 12y ago
  but in reality the people who disagree often have just as good an understanding of the basic facts, yet disagree anyway. Really? I hate to be the elitist asshole, but if people don't understand that making bits uncopyable is not in the realm of reality, then I would argue they don't understand basic facts. See Schneier's commentary on "making water not wet" and copy protection, eg https://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram-0108.html#7 https://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram-0108.html#7
  - streptomycin 12y ago
    It's impossible to make bits uncopyable, but it's easy to make them less convenient to copy. That's the purpose of DRM.
    - sroerick 12y ago
      It's not easy to make them less convienient to copy. It is easy to outlaw it, though.
- bunderbunder 12y ago
  Put me in that camp. I did care about DRM at one time, but that's tapered off quite a bit over the years. A lot of this probably correlates with my having become something of a cord cutter. It's hard to get worked up over concerns that someone might be threatening my "right" to disposable content that I've decided I don't need, usually don't want, and tend to think of as having a net negative impact on my quality of life. Perhaps it's my jaded brand of libertarianism showing: I'm inclined to say that media companies have just as much a right to make it hard for me to give them money as I have a right to continue not giving them money. Ironically enough, we're actually working toward a common cause. (edit: A response would be more edifying than a drive-by downvote, y'all.)
  - spacelizard 12y ago
    You could argue that most of the works available on Netflix are pretty superfluous, but this isn't really a reason to dismiss the reasons not to use DRM. For one, the issue extends to much more media than just video. Ebook DRM is way more scary. In the case of any DRM though, it just so happens that not using their services is probably the only reasonable solution. So you're spot-on in that regard. The very existence of DRM is proof that these companies are on life support anyway.
    - stinkytaco 12y ago
      >Ebook DRM is way more scary. I'm curios about your use of the term "scary". First of all, is the assumption that ebooks are a more valid form of information transmission or artistic expression than video? If it's purely a question of information, then I'd argue that ebook DRM is largely irrelevant because the Internet has surpassed books as the primary information delivery tool (see: Wikipedia). [side note: I think it's curious that as our access to some content has become more restricted, are access to other content has exploded. A person would never have had access to something like the Wikipedia outside a library 20 years ago, now you can get it on your phone wherever you are]. And it's not like print books have gone away, nor like they will in the near future. Indeed, publishers are desperate to continue to sell them to you because they have more control over the distribution chain. This applies to video as well, for that matter.
- stcredzero 12y ago
  many people say "people who disagree with me (just) don't understand," but in reality the people who disagree often have just as good an understanding of the basic facts I have yet to meet anyone who disagrees with the theory of evolution through natural selection who actually understands it well. Security, privacy, and cryptography are complicated subjects where the most potent effects are often epiphenomena. I don't have studies to back me up, but my impression from talking to most non technical people, is that they have only a hazy idea of what is involved.
  - loup-vaillant 12y ago
    To further the point, when 2 people diagree about facts (they disagree less often about morality), then at least someone is doing it wrong. Might be you, might be me. Either way, contradictions are still false.
  - bunderbunder 12y ago
    Did you just place scientific theories and political opinions in the same epistemological category? And here I thought postmodernism was dead.
    - stcredzero 12y ago
      No. Scientific theories with cryptography and security. Both of those are closely associated with politics, but have verifiable truth.
jaboutboul 12y ago
smartest comment on the thread
higherpurpose 12y ago
Yes, it's exactly as with the mass spying issue. Most may even say they don't care, but only because they don't really understand how far NSA's power can go and how it can be used. Once you sit them down and explain it to them properly, they usually start understanding and realizing how dangerous it is.
vijayr 12y ago
It is actually both. While it is true that many users don't understand, there are many users who understand and still don't care.
Steve87 12y ago
How about: it's unrealistic to expect most users to understand enough to care, in the foreseeable future. Therefore, free software organizations need to make a choice of mass appeal vs free software purity. I'm of the opinion that you're never going to get all those users, so why cater to them? Also, if you don't get them on your own terms (avoiding proprietary software), what's the point?
7952 12y ago
I don't think people do care in an ideological sense. But they probably do get annoyed if they have to install Silverlight, or can't play a purchased movie on Youtube because the DRM has failed. If we are to continue having DRM to watch videos then it might as well work.
- davidgerard 12y ago
  People don't care about this stuff until it bites them in the ass. Then they care a whole lot.
lnanek2 12y ago
What if people don't want to be teached? Honestly, if you talk to most users about this they'll just say they'll use Chrome if FireFox is broken on a movie, and if they have to pay for the movie they'll just use BitTorrent or Popcorn Time or whatever pirate app is popular right now.
astrobe_ 12y ago
It seems to me that people view and treat the same as politics: your voice is supposed to matter but collusion, corruption, relationships, lobbying etc. seem to matter more.
nitrogen 12y ago
Could an analogy be drawn to other issues where consumers have no hope of understanding all the issues and influencing the market, like medicine and automotive safety? There are decisions consumers aren't expected to make because of the enormous hidden complexity combined with powerful entrenched interests. Why, then, do some use consumer apathy as a sign that it's okay to force DRM onto everybody for the sake of a relatively small industry, or to charge extra to turn off intrusive deep packet inspection (AT&T)?
cookiecaper 12y ago
Most users don't care to understand. They just want you to quit spouting your nerd shit and give them their TV shows.
azakai 12y ago
>Everyone keeps repeating the claim that "most users don't care" but I think the more accurate characterization is "most users don't understand". Certainly. But look at the people here on HN, who do understand. How many have them have stopped using browsers and OSes that ship EME? The people that would educate the "average" user, that doesn't yet understand, are HN-type people. But while there is lots of hatred for DRM in the comments here, there simply is not enough interest in actually fighting it. It we did want to fight it, we wouldn't use products with EME and we would get our non-techie friends to do the same.
- stinkytaco 12y ago
  >It we did want to fight it, we wouldn't use products with EME and we would get our non-techie friends to do the same. I think if I tried to do this, I would have way fewer friends. I don't get invited to many parties to begin with.
  - azakai 12y ago
    Yeah, I'm guessing that is pretty common, and it's why EME is winning.

danielweber 12y ago

Without responding to your specific point, many people say "people who disagree with me (just) don't understand," but in reality the people who disagree often have just as good an understanding of the basic facts, yet disagree anyway.

npsimons 12y ago
but in reality the people who disagree often have just as good an understanding of the basic facts, yet disagree anyway. Really? I hate to be the elitist asshole, but if people don't understand that making bits uncopyable is not in the realm of reality, then I would argue they don't understand basic facts. See Schneier's commentary on "making water not wet" and copy protection, eg https://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram-0108.html#7 https://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram-0108.html#7
- streptomycin 12y ago
  It's impossible to make bits uncopyable, but it's easy to make them less convenient to copy. That's the purpose of DRM.
  - sroerick 12y ago
    It's not easy to make them less convienient to copy. It is easy to outlaw it, though.
bunderbunder 12y ago
Put me in that camp. I did care about DRM at one time, but that's tapered off quite a bit over the years. A lot of this probably correlates with my having become something of a cord cutter. It's hard to get worked up over concerns that someone might be threatening my "right" to disposable content that I've decided I don't need, usually don't want, and tend to think of as having a net negative impact on my quality of life. Perhaps it's my jaded brand of libertarianism showing: I'm inclined to say that media companies have just as much a right to make it hard for me to give them money as I have a right to continue not giving them money. Ironically enough, we're actually working toward a common cause. (edit: A response would be more edifying than a drive-by downvote, y'all.)
- spacelizard 12y ago
  You could argue that most of the works available on Netflix are pretty superfluous, but this isn't really a reason to dismiss the reasons not to use DRM. For one, the issue extends to much more media than just video. Ebook DRM is way more scary. In the case of any DRM though, it just so happens that not using their services is probably the only reasonable solution. So you're spot-on in that regard. The very existence of DRM is proof that these companies are on life support anyway.
  - stinkytaco 12y ago
    >Ebook DRM is way more scary. I'm curios about your use of the term "scary". First of all, is the assumption that ebooks are a more valid form of information transmission or artistic expression than video? If it's purely a question of information, then I'd argue that ebook DRM is largely irrelevant because the Internet has surpassed books as the primary information delivery tool (see: Wikipedia). [side note: I think it's curious that as our access to some content has become more restricted, are access to other content has exploded. A person would never have had access to something like the Wikipedia outside a library 20 years ago, now you can get it on your phone wherever you are]. And it's not like print books have gone away, nor like they will in the near future. Indeed, publishers are desperate to continue to sell them to you because they have more control over the distribution chain. This applies to video as well, for that matter.
stcredzero 12y ago
many people say "people who disagree with me (just) don't understand," but in reality the people who disagree often have just as good an understanding of the basic facts I have yet to meet anyone who disagrees with the theory of evolution through natural selection who actually understands it well. Security, privacy, and cryptography are complicated subjects where the most potent effects are often epiphenomena. I don't have studies to back me up, but my impression from talking to most non technical people, is that they have only a hazy idea of what is involved.
- loup-vaillant 12y ago
  To further the point, when 2 people diagree about facts (they disagree less often about morality), then at least someone is doing it wrong. Might be you, might be me. Either way, contradictions are still false.
- bunderbunder 12y ago
  Did you just place scientific theories and political opinions in the same epistemological category? And here I thought postmodernism was dead.
  - stcredzero 12y ago
    No. Scientific theories with cryptography and security. Both of those are closely associated with politics, but have verifiable truth.

jaboutboul 12y ago

smartest comment on the thread

higherpurpose 12y ago

Yes, it's exactly as with the mass spying issue. Most may even say they don't care, but only because they don't really understand how far NSA's power can go and how it can be used. Once you sit them down and explain it to them properly, they usually start understanding and realizing how dangerous it is.

vijayr 12y ago

It is actually both. While it is true that many users don't understand, there are many users who understand and still don't care.

Steve87 12y ago

How about: it's unrealistic to expect most users to understand enough to care, in the foreseeable future. Therefore, free software organizations need to make a choice of mass appeal vs free software purity. I'm of the opinion that you're never going to get all those users, so why cater to them? Also, if you don't get them on your own terms (avoiding proprietary software), what's the point?

7952 12y ago

I don't think people do care in an ideological sense. But they probably do get annoyed if they have to install Silverlight, or can't play a purchased movie on Youtube because the DRM has failed. If we are to continue having DRM to watch videos then it might as well work.

davidgerard 12y ago
People don't care about this stuff until it bites them in the ass. Then they care a whole lot.

lnanek2 12y ago

What if people don't want to be teached? Honestly, if you talk to most users about this they'll just say they'll use Chrome if FireFox is broken on a movie, and if they have to pay for the movie they'll just use BitTorrent or Popcorn Time or whatever pirate app is popular right now.

astrobe_ 12y ago

It seems to me that people view and treat the same as politics: your voice is supposed to matter but collusion, corruption, relationships, lobbying etc. seem to matter more.

nitrogen 12y ago

Could an analogy be drawn to other issues where consumers have no hope of understanding all the issues and influencing the market, like medicine and automotive safety? There are decisions consumers aren't expected to make because of the enormous hidden complexity combined with powerful entrenched interests. Why, then, do some use consumer apathy as a sign that it's okay to force DRM onto everybody for the sake of a relatively small industry, or to charge extra to turn off intrusive deep packet inspection (AT&T)?

cookiecaper 12y ago

Most users don't care to understand. They just want you to quit spouting your nerd shit and give them their TV shows.

azakai 12y ago

>Everyone keeps repeating the claim that "most users don't care" but I think the more accurate characterization is "most users don't understand". Certainly. But look at the people here on HN, who do understand. How many have them have stopped using browsers and OSes that ship EME? The people that would educate the "average" user, that doesn't yet understand, are HN-type people. But while there is lots of hatred for DRM in the comments here, there simply is not enough interest in actually fighting it. It we did want to fight it, we wouldn't use products with EME and we would get our non-techie friends to do the same.

stinkytaco 12y ago
>It we did want to fight it, we wouldn't use products with EME and we would get our non-techie friends to do the same. I think if I tried to do this, I would have way fewer friends. I don't get invited to many parties to begin with.
- azakai 12y ago
  Yeah, I'm guessing that is pretty common, and it's why EME is winning.