5 ms·

Then why not promote competition and choice, via antitrust enforcement and franchising/last-mile-infrastructure reforms? Federal "net neutrality" regulations f

by gojomo 13y ago

Then why not promote competition and choice, via antitrust enforcement and franchising/last-mile-infrastructure reforms? Federal "net neutrality" regulations freeze into national law a particular formula for access, based on an idealized model that's never quite existed before. (To the extent the net has often been 'neutral', it's not because the FCC demanded it, but customers and businesses. And the legions of de facto exceptions have been practical, and evolving quickly, not waiting for telecom-lawyer mandarins in DC to design us a better internet.) Even if new utility-style regulation prevents certain abuses, it equally prevents valuable experiments from incumbents or new entrants. The history of regulated utilities – electric, water, classic phones – is one of stagnation, and plenty of subtle abuses from those incumbents whose margins get effectively written into law.

dragonwriter 13y ago
> Federal "net neutrality" regulations freeze into national law a particular formula for access Er, no it doesn't "freeze" anything. FCC regulations of other regulated industries are very frequently updated. And regulations, while given force of law by the laws authorizing regulation, are not the same as law particularly with regard to being "frozen", as they can be changed by either changing the law on which they are based, or by change through regulatory process. They are, therefore, strictly less "frozen" than law.
- neura 13y ago
  Maybe the old saying "give them an inch, they'll take a mile" is apropos here?
  - dragonwriter 13y ago
    Apropos how, besides describing what the ISPs have already demonstrated?
    - neura 12y ago
      While no, "as an access provider, you can filter and rate limit content in combination with charging content providers as well as consumers for the transfer of that content" will not be constitutionalized or truly frozen... Moving in that direction with FCC regulations is pretty close to the same thing. It sets a precedent for this practice in the future. In nearly any system, it's harder to remove or change regulations than it is to add them. In fact, it will make it easier to add similar regulations, as has been shown throughout the history of our country's particular style of governance.
mullingitover 13y ago
> Even if new utility-style regulation prevents certain abuses, it equally prevents valuable experiments from incumbents or new entrants. Without opening up infrastructure to competing ISP services, the current system guarantees there will be no new entrants (and, via mergers, an ever decreasing number of competitors). Infrastructure is a natural monopoly, but the services provided over that infrastructure are not. Locking infrastructure customers to a single ISP is effectively giving the monopolies a gift-wrapped invitation to abuse their market power.
- gojomo 13y ago
  There are new wireless technologies. And Google blimps or Google fiber. And other companies or cities can run new wires, or put ever-improving wireless repeaters on old polls. None of the cable infrastructure is that old, the world is awash in capital looking for projects, and even the tech for running wires has improved massively recently via robotics, compared to the 70s/80s cable build-outs. Smarter caching, or peer-to-peer delivery, can also thwart many ISP bottlenecks. So I'm not sure this is a 'natural monopoly' at all. There's been too little time to observe, and things are still changing fast. Let abusive incumbents try to collect monopoly rents. That would attract lots of new solutions from very savvy and deep-pocketed challengers, like Google, Apple, and other strategic investors.
  - Goronmon 13y ago
    That would attract lots of new solutions from very savvy and deep-pocketed challengers, like Google, Apple, and other strategic investors. And if it doesn't? How long do we wait?
    - gojomo 12y ago
      Wait until measurable abuses actually exist, and persist for year or two – enough time to understand – rather than acting on paranoid fantasies (like the "cable tiers" mockup) that might never materialize. For example, what if ISPs roll out traffic-preferences-for-pay... but the base bandwidth available to customers, and sites that don't opt to pay for preference, also keeps improving, on a price/performance basis? Would that still be an emergency requiring novel nationwide regulation? And wouldn't we learn something if some local markets showed abuse or lagging price/performance, while others thrived? Couldn't we, and especially the lagging jurisdictions, then do the minimal targeted reforms to improve results based on actual history, rather than a theoretical "neutral net" ideal? Note that unlike the shared broadcast airwaves, the economic case for wires being a 'commons' needing public management is weak. There's already at least 3 sets of wires running to most structures – electricity, phones, and cable – and more could be added if those aren't satisfying the customers. And even electricity – far more foundational than internet – is regulated in a diverse manner locally, not nationally. Wait and see and let localities and businesses experiment is just fine - it's what got us to this point, after all, and the internet is doing just fine – albeit prone to occasional panic attacks: "Death of the Internet Predicted, Film At 11".

by gojomo 13y ago

dragonwriter 13y ago

> Federal "net neutrality" regulations freeze into national law a particular formula for access Er, no it doesn't "freeze" anything. FCC regulations of other regulated industries are very frequently updated. And regulations, while given force of law by the laws authorizing regulation, are not the same as law particularly with regard to being "frozen", as they can be changed by either changing the law on which they are based, or by change through regulatory process. They are, therefore, strictly less "frozen" than law.

neura 13y ago
Maybe the old saying "give them an inch, they'll take a mile" is apropos here?
- dragonwriter 13y ago
  Apropos how, besides describing what the ISPs have already demonstrated?
  - neura 12y ago
    While no, "as an access provider, you can filter and rate limit content in combination with charging content providers as well as consumers for the transfer of that content" will not be constitutionalized or truly frozen... Moving in that direction with FCC regulations is pretty close to the same thing. It sets a precedent for this practice in the future. In nearly any system, it's harder to remove or change regulations than it is to add them. In fact, it will make it easier to add similar regulations, as has been shown throughout the history of our country's particular style of governance.

mullingitover 13y ago

> Even if new utility-style regulation prevents certain abuses, it equally prevents valuable experiments from incumbents or new entrants. Without opening up infrastructure to competing ISP services, the current system guarantees there will be no new entrants (and, via mergers, an ever decreasing number of competitors). Infrastructure is a natural monopoly, but the services provided over that infrastructure are not. Locking infrastructure customers to a single ISP is effectively giving the monopolies a gift-wrapped invitation to abuse their market power.

gojomo 13y ago
There are new wireless technologies. And Google blimps or Google fiber. And other companies or cities can run new wires, or put ever-improving wireless repeaters on old polls. None of the cable infrastructure is that old, the world is awash in capital looking for projects, and even the tech for running wires has improved massively recently via robotics, compared to the 70s/80s cable build-outs. Smarter caching, or peer-to-peer delivery, can also thwart many ISP bottlenecks. So I'm not sure this is a 'natural monopoly' at all. There's been too little time to observe, and things are still changing fast. Let abusive incumbents try to collect monopoly rents. That would attract lots of new solutions from very savvy and deep-pocketed challengers, like Google, Apple, and other strategic investors.
- Goronmon 13y ago
  That would attract lots of new solutions from very savvy and deep-pocketed challengers, like Google, Apple, and other strategic investors. And if it doesn't? How long do we wait?
  - gojomo 12y ago
    Wait until measurable abuses actually exist, and persist for year or two – enough time to understand – rather than acting on paranoid fantasies (like the "cable tiers" mockup) that might never materialize. For example, what if ISPs roll out traffic-preferences-for-pay... but the base bandwidth available to customers, and sites that don't opt to pay for preference, also keeps improving, on a price/performance basis? Would that still be an emergency requiring novel nationwide regulation? And wouldn't we learn something if some local markets showed abuse or lagging price/performance, while others thrived? Couldn't we, and especially the lagging jurisdictions, then do the minimal targeted reforms to improve results based on actual history, rather than a theoretical "neutral net" ideal? Note that unlike the shared broadcast airwaves, the economic case for wires being a 'commons' needing public management is weak. There's already at least 3 sets of wires running to most structures – electricity, phones, and cable – and more could be added if those aren't satisfying the customers. And even electricity – far more foundational than internet – is regulated in a diverse manner locally, not nationally. Wait and see and let localities and businesses experiment is just fine - it's what got us to this point, after all, and the internet is doing just fine – albeit prone to occasional panic attacks: "Death of the Internet Predicted, Film At 11".