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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_monopoly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_monopoly Trust-busting and anti-collusion laws aren't "anti-capitalist", e

by jbooth 12y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_monopoly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_monopoly Trust-busting and anti-collusion laws aren't "anti-capitalist", even though you could argue backroom deals are just the free market at work. The same goes for regulation of a natural monopoly.

dragonwriter 12y ago
> Trust-busting and anti-collusion laws aren't "anti-capitalist" Sure they are. They are specifically directed at preventing capitalists from combining in certain ways to advance their interests as capitalists, and can't be anything but anti-capitalist.
- webmaven 12y ago
  That depends on whether you parse 'anti-capitalist' as 'anti-people-who-are-capitalists' or 'anti-markets-which-are-capitalist'. Completely unregulated markets aren't very friendly to capitalism (although some individual capitalists may end up on top of the heap) either as they don't stay capitalist, so most capitalists go along with trust busting and anti collusion regulations as they (correctly) assume that their individual odds of ending up as the apex predator in a dog-eat-dog world are not very good.
  - dragonwriter 12y ago
    > Completely unregulated markets aren't very friendly to capitalism No, but markets which are regulated in favor of capitalists rather than restraining them are -- which is the feature of "capitalism" for which the system was named by its 19th century critics. (Of course, "capitalism" gets abused to mean "a system with whatever features of modern mixed economies the speaker likes but without those which the speaker does not like" frequently enough that it is getting close to the point of being a completely useless term.)
    - webmaven 12y ago
      I think you're glossing over the point that markets that at least minimally restrain capitalists to keep them from screwing over other capitalists is a basic feature of capitalism-friendliness (at least to the extent that you agree capitalism-friendliness requires that a market be prevented from devolving into some form of feudalism). That said, yes, I am aware of the 'what do you mean by capitalism' issue. I've found this article interesting in that vein: http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/2011/08/libertarian-anticapitalism/ http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/2011/08/libertarian-ant...

by jbooth 12y ago

dragonwriter 12y ago

> Trust-busting and anti-collusion laws aren't "anti-capitalist" Sure they are. They are specifically directed at preventing capitalists from combining in certain ways to advance their interests as capitalists, and can't be anything but anti-capitalist.

webmaven 12y ago
That depends on whether you parse 'anti-capitalist' as 'anti-people-who-are-capitalists' or 'anti-markets-which-are-capitalist'. Completely unregulated markets aren't very friendly to capitalism (although some individual capitalists may end up on top of the heap) either as they don't stay capitalist, so most capitalists go along with trust busting and anti collusion regulations as they (correctly) assume that their individual odds of ending up as the apex predator in a dog-eat-dog world are not very good.
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  > Completely unregulated markets aren't very friendly to capitalism No, but markets which are regulated in favor of capitalists rather than restraining them are -- which is the feature of "capitalism" for which the system was named by its 19th century critics. (Of course, "capitalism" gets abused to mean "a system with whatever features of modern mixed economies the speaker likes but without those which the speaker does not like" frequently enough that it is getting close to the point of being a completely useless term.)
  - webmaven 12y ago
    I think you're glossing over the point that markets that at least minimally restrain capitalists to keep them from screwing over other capitalists is a basic feature of capitalism-friendliness (at least to the extent that you agree capitalism-friendliness requires that a market be prevented from devolving into some form of feudalism). That said, yes, I am aware of the 'what do you mean by capitalism' issue. I've found this article interesting in that vein: http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/2011/08/libertarian-anticapitalism/ http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/2011/08/libertarian-ant...