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A quick google gets me this quote: "Chicago school teachers make a median salary of $71,017. That's a whole lot more than the city's median household income (w

A quick google gets me this quote: "Chicago school teachers make a median salary of $71,017. That's a whole lot more than the city's median household income (which can include multiple salaries for households with more than one earner) of $46,877, and greater still than its median per capita income of $27,148" According to the actual Chicago Public Schools site that average is now $74,839. "Low pay" seems like quite a reach for me, especially for an employee who works only 9 months out of the year. I agree with your last line very much, but I don't think it hurts to aim some focus towards getting students that extra 14%.

acdha 12y ago
It sounds good compared to the median for the city but you're talking about a job which requires a masters degree - look at the median for that and then remember that you're talking about job which has a RIGID daily schedule, no vacation time during the year, etc. If you're a bright college student, how does that look versus say learning enough Python to get that income straight out of college? Before answering, remember that one of these jobs involves dealing with difficult children, bad parents, often pointy-haired administrators, meddling politicians, etc. 9 months of the year is a popular claim but it's very misleading: most teachers are working 60+ hours during week (and weekends) during the school year and the summer vacation has been steadily shrinking as schools add various administrative days and many teachers are required to engage in ongoing professional development which means that they're using some of that time to take classes. This isn't to say that teaching is abject misery but we aren't exactly going out of our way to make the job appealing. If you look at the total time commitment or stress levels, there are plenty of jobs where you'll get a better deal.
- danielweber 12y ago
  The master's requirement is nonsense. It was put in place as a credential roadblock to make entering the teaching profession more difficult, but it has zero effect on student results. If we are going to compare inputs in that way, we can look at the test scores of college students going for education degrees, and see that they have worse English scores than the math majors and also have worse math scores than the English majors.[1] For most education majors, their alternative isn't to become a lawyer or scientist or Python developer. The education degree is useful for people who are doing research into education, not actually teaching themselves. [1] First google hit among many for SAT scores of education majors: http://www.joshuakennon.com/sat-scores-ranked-by-intended-college-major-show-teachers-are-below-average/ http://www.joshuakennon.com/sat-scores-ranked-by-intended-co...
  - acdha 12y ago
    I'm not saying that masters degree should be a requirement but it is in many districts and if you look at the pool of college-students who are able to get a masters degree in any subject, teaching pays worse than most of the options after you balance the low pay of academia with the considerably higher level of flexibility. My sample is skewed by knowing mostly science teachers but basically 100% of the ones I know could easily learn to program as well as a fair percentage of the developers I've worked with. They might not be doing original CS research or doing kernel driver development but there's an awful lot of work, much of it quite well paying, which depends more on skills other than core programming ability.
    - danielweber 12y ago
      and if you look at the pool of college-students who are able to get a masters degree in any subject If you keep on bringing up the Master's degree as some kind of proof of the other jobs they could get, I'll have to keep on posting things like[1] It's almost like the Master's of Education has been watered down to a credential to people who are willing to put in a bunch of busy work. I'm not surprised that science teachers are pretty smart. Almost all my science teachers were pretty on it (I can name two exceptions). We probably need to do something to attract more quality science teachers. But, of course, saying that is an insult to current teachers.[2] [1] http://www.cbsnews.com/news/heres-the-nations-easiest-college-major/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/heres-the-nations-easiest-colleg... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7739759 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7739759
      - acdha 12y ago
        You obviously feel that it's useless, which is debatable but not the issue under discussion, namely that it's a professional barrier to entry which requires extra time or money to get. My point was simply that it's misleading to compare the median incomes for an city to a subset almost entirely comprised of people who've completed both an undergraduate degree and masters program. You can argue about the merits of the requirement, whether schools of education should change their practices, etc. but until that changes, honesty compels you to compare the median incomes of people with roughly equivalent time invested in their professional skills. > We probably need to do something to attract more quality science teachers. But, of course, saying that is an insult to current teachers.[2] You appear determined to misunderstand that comment: it's a question of balance. The next time you hear a politician talk about education, see how many times they say anything positive about teachers versus the negatives – and note the dubious aspect to, say, “hard working” when you know that means “nights and weekends at no extra pay”. How would you feel if your CEO kept talking about your company is releasing buggy code and we need to hire better programmers and make shipping bug-free code a key part of your pay? And, of course, no department is getting more staff, pay isn't going up in absolute terms, and none of the major obstacles people have been trying to get fixed for years are getting addressed first. Now consider if it was paired with, say, major investment in a world-class QA operation, internal support resources and developers gaining some influence over deadlines and features. The core program might be the same but how it would be perceived is completely different if it's backed by signs of commitment and doesn't feel like you're being scapegoated.
- AndrewKemendo 12y ago
  http://www.cps.edu/calendar/student_days_off/Pages/StudentDaysOff.aspx http://www.cps.edu/calendar/student_days_off/Pages/StudentDa... If you subtract the number of teacher/administrative work days they get about 20 days off per year - during the school year. My wife has been a private school teacher for almost a decade now and worked briefly in public schools. She saw firsthand the insane rigidity of the teachers union and how incompetent teachers were kept on because they were fast to involve the union and were more senior.

acdha 12y ago

It sounds good compared to the median for the city but you're talking about a job which requires a masters degree - look at the median for that and then remember that you're talking about job which has a RIGID daily schedule, no vacation time during the year, etc. If you're a bright college student, how does that look versus say learning enough Python to get that income straight out of college? Before answering, remember that one of these jobs involves dealing with difficult children, bad parents, often pointy-haired administrators, meddling politicians, etc. 9 months of the year is a popular claim but it's very misleading: most teachers are working 60+ hours during week (and weekends) during the school year and the summer vacation has been steadily shrinking as schools add various administrative days and many teachers are required to engage in ongoing professional development which means that they're using some of that time to take classes. This isn't to say that teaching is abject misery but we aren't exactly going out of our way to make the job appealing. If you look at the total time commitment or stress levels, there are plenty of jobs where you'll get a better deal.

danielweber 12y ago
The master's requirement is nonsense. It was put in place as a credential roadblock to make entering the teaching profession more difficult, but it has zero effect on student results. If we are going to compare inputs in that way, we can look at the test scores of college students going for education degrees, and see that they have worse English scores than the math majors and also have worse math scores than the English majors.[1] For most education majors, their alternative isn't to become a lawyer or scientist or Python developer. The education degree is useful for people who are doing research into education, not actually teaching themselves. [1] First google hit among many for SAT scores of education majors: http://www.joshuakennon.com/sat-scores-ranked-by-intended-college-major-show-teachers-are-below-average/ http://www.joshuakennon.com/sat-scores-ranked-by-intended-co...
- acdha 12y ago
  I'm not saying that masters degree should be a requirement but it is in many districts and if you look at the pool of college-students who are able to get a masters degree in any subject, teaching pays worse than most of the options after you balance the low pay of academia with the considerably higher level of flexibility. My sample is skewed by knowing mostly science teachers but basically 100% of the ones I know could easily learn to program as well as a fair percentage of the developers I've worked with. They might not be doing original CS research or doing kernel driver development but there's an awful lot of work, much of it quite well paying, which depends more on skills other than core programming ability.
  - danielweber 12y ago
    and if you look at the pool of college-students who are able to get a masters degree in any subject If you keep on bringing up the Master's degree as some kind of proof of the other jobs they could get, I'll have to keep on posting things like[1] It's almost like the Master's of Education has been watered down to a credential to people who are willing to put in a bunch of busy work. I'm not surprised that science teachers are pretty smart. Almost all my science teachers were pretty on it (I can name two exceptions). We probably need to do something to attract more quality science teachers. But, of course, saying that is an insult to current teachers.[2] [1] http://www.cbsnews.com/news/heres-the-nations-easiest-college-major/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/heres-the-nations-easiest-colleg... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7739759 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7739759
    - acdha 12y ago
      You obviously feel that it's useless, which is debatable but not the issue under discussion, namely that it's a professional barrier to entry which requires extra time or money to get. My point was simply that it's misleading to compare the median incomes for an city to a subset almost entirely comprised of people who've completed both an undergraduate degree and masters program. You can argue about the merits of the requirement, whether schools of education should change their practices, etc. but until that changes, honesty compels you to compare the median incomes of people with roughly equivalent time invested in their professional skills. > We probably need to do something to attract more quality science teachers. But, of course, saying that is an insult to current teachers.[2] You appear determined to misunderstand that comment: it's a question of balance. The next time you hear a politician talk about education, see how many times they say anything positive about teachers versus the negatives – and note the dubious aspect to, say, “hard working” when you know that means “nights and weekends at no extra pay”. How would you feel if your CEO kept talking about your company is releasing buggy code and we need to hire better programmers and make shipping bug-free code a key part of your pay? And, of course, no department is getting more staff, pay isn't going up in absolute terms, and none of the major obstacles people have been trying to get fixed for years are getting addressed first. Now consider if it was paired with, say, major investment in a world-class QA operation, internal support resources and developers gaining some influence over deadlines and features. The core program might be the same but how it would be perceived is completely different if it's backed by signs of commitment and doesn't feel like you're being scapegoated.
AndrewKemendo 12y ago
http://www.cps.edu/calendar/student_days_off/Pages/StudentDaysOff.aspx http://www.cps.edu/calendar/student_days_off/Pages/StudentDa... If you subtract the number of teacher/administrative work days they get about 20 days off per year - during the school year. My wife has been a private school teacher for almost a decade now and worked briefly in public schools. She saw firsthand the insane rigidity of the teachers union and how incompetent teachers were kept on because they were fast to involve the union and were more senior.