8 ms·

I have personal experience with urban education, having been a member of a fairly large city's school board. One thing I realized is that centralization has kil

by jstalin 12y ago

I have personal experience with urban education, having been a member of a fairly large city's school board. One thing I realized is that centralization has killed the ability for anyone to think outside the box. There used to be thousands of school districts in my state, but that number has dropped by around 90%. Sure, I get the argument that it's more efficient to pool some resources, such as buses, food service, etc., but I really believe that education is really just about having a good principal who can choose his/her teachers and hold them accountable. Most people aren't aware that many union contracts prohibit the principal from choosing the teachers in the school because of seniority rules, and getting rid of bad teachers is essentially hopeless. And of course all teachers are paid the same, based on years of tenure, rather than actual outcomes or instructional needs. I've seen schools which most would consider being in the worst part of the ghetto doing very well because of a highly motivated principal. The more we centralize, the harder it becomes to do anything of value to help schools perform better. And the trend continues to be more and more in the direction of centralization.

bradleyjg 12y ago
On the other hand, tiny little school districts were created for the purposes of racial segregation and continue to act as mechanisms of racial and economic segregation. Also depending on state law and various other contingent factors, you can end up with regional or even state wide union contracts even with balkanized school districts. Finally, specialized (including aggressively tracked) schools are difficult to impossible with small catchment areas that only support a few schools per level. Although it's far far from perfect, the NYC education department has managed to increase principal autonomy somewhat without throwing out all the advantages to scale.
- carsongross 12y ago
  And there, my friends, is the totalitarian impulse: "We must coercively centralize in the name of platonic ideals, damn the costs."
  - icebraining 12y ago
    You must have read a different post than me. The one I read pointed concrete (true or not) problems with the model of small school districts, not "platonic ideals".
  - gagaga 12y ago
    And there, my friends, is the spin: "Let me poorly reduce someone's well reasoned statement into a biased sentence."
drzaiusapelord 12y ago
> and getting rid of bad teachers is essentially hopeless. This is the big problem with education. I don't like how unions have co-opted the narrative to "Just pay us more and we'll finally do our jobs right" which somehow has become crowd friendly. Instead better performance testing and easier firing is what we need, especially in my hometown of Chicago. Public sector unions have interests that go against those of taxpayers by default. Until we fix unions we won't fix education.
- acdha 12y ago
  > I don't like how unions have co-opted the narrative to "Just pay us more and we'll finally do our jobs right" They're probably even less happy about the right-wing has co-opted the narrative that the problems in education are caused by the teachers. Teaching is a challenging job which requires an advanced degree, very long hours with no flexibility, low pay even before you adjust for true hours worked, and you are given very little professional discretion. Do you really think you're going to get better results by putting even more pressure on things which teachers have only marginal control over[1] rather than simply encouraging more teachers to leave? To put some facts into the discussion: this assessment by the American Statistical Association found that teachers are responsible for 1 to 14% of student's test score variance: http://www.amstat.org/policy/pdfs/ASA_VAM_Statement.pdf http://www.amstat.org/policy/pdfs/ASA_VAM_Statement.pdf Follow Amdahl's law: even if you could load the school up with the best teachers on the planet, lavish pay, fully merit-based, etc. you're not going to see the kind of improvements you're claiming. The problems start outside of the classroom and need to be fixed there.
  - waterlesscloud 12y ago
    "The problems start outside of the classroom and need to fixed there." So you'd agree that more money for schools is not the answer?
    - acdha 12y ago
      In general, yes, although I do have one major exception: paying teachers more would reduce turnover (which is expensive to deal with) and I think there's still plenty of room for improvement in support services: tutors, particularly for non-native speakers, special needs assistance, counseling / mentoring / etc. In many cases simply having a second person in the classroom who could help a kid who's struggling, deal with discipline issues, etc. without disrupting the overall lesson as much would be a worthwhile investment. This would cost more, although I'd hope we could compensate by having fewer administrators making hard-to-discern contributions at [generally] much higher pay.
gmu3 12y ago
The union contracts are really out of control. For those that aren't aware, research "rubber rooms". Hundreds of teachers in NYC are literally paid to come and sit in empty rooms and do nothing while they wait years to be reviewed because the districts don't have the ability to fire teachers.
- lmm 12y ago
  As a European I wouldn't blame the unions there; the right to an arbitration hearing when you're accused of misconduct does not seem unreasonable. What else would you do, allow anyone to just be fired on the principal's say-so? The real problem seems to be that the arbitration proceedings in NYC take years - partly because NYC isn't paying the arbitrators (in contrast to the union, which is paying its half of the arbitrator wages). How is that the union's fault?
  - danielweber 12y ago
    What else would you do, allow anyone to just be fired on the principal's say-so? This is the way just about every other profession in the US works. My manager doesn't need to prove anything to anyone to dismiss me.
    - Iftheshoefits 12y ago
      I'm not sure holding up any other profession, much less "just about every other profession" as a model of how we should organize our employer/employee relationships is a good idea. The kind of relationship you describe has created a general environment in which wages are depressed and working conditions continue to deteriorate. Every time unions lose power, workers' working conditions--including compensation and intangibles--deteriorate.
      - danielweber 12y ago
        Most professionals -- which teachers desire to be treated like -- have done quite well over the past 34 years despite fewer and fewer organizational defenses of their conditions. Unskilled labor is another story. Unless teachers should be treated and protected like factory workers. Usually teachers object to that characterization, but if you want to argue for it, okay. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professions [2] I'm assuming you are using Reagan's election as the start date of the professional malaise. Call it a lucky guess.
bluedino 12y ago
You can get rid of the 'bad' teachers but there's a finite supply of 'good' teachers. You can pay them more or give them smaller class sizes or educate them more, but you're still not going to just magically end up with everyone being a great teacher. It's just like you can't make any ten programmers all 10x programmers, no matter what.
- thedufer 12y ago
  In many places you can't get rid of the bad teachers - largely because of overly powerful unions. People who would make good teachers are driven away from teaching by the perverse incentives. Yes, the number of good teachers is finite, but so few of them are actually in front of students that the upper limit hardly matters for the foreseeable future.
Loughla 12y ago
Thank you for a rational, experience based answer.
cafard 12y ago
I would argue that high school education is generally better in Maryland and Virginia, where school districts are by county (or equivalent city) than in Pennsylvania, where there are many more school districts.
brudgers 12y ago
It's interesting to note that well supported public school districts aren't fighting to switch to charter schools and vouchers and the end to tenure. Nobody is saying "Sure our high school is among the best academically, but think of how much better it would be if the teachers were worried about not having a job next year." Then again, $100 million won't buy them off. Perhaps because it's not enough to cover the construction of a new high school. In a place like Newark, a child's teachers may be the only people in their lives with stable employment. That doesn't matter when implementing free market Wahhabism. Teachers must fear for their jobs. Tenure is an imperfect proxy for employee ownership. As the article shows, it may be a better model than venture capital rocket fuelled disruption. The tragedy, in human terms, is not the failure. The tragedy in human terms is that unjust means were rationalized for ideological ends and the result was still a failure...in human terms. Free market Wahhabism just writes up all those charter schools and consultants and studies and threatened livelihoods to a failed "ability to think outside the box." The solution to the solution failing is always the solution. [Disclaimer: my sister is a public school teacher. Tattooed and pierced, she does the Dirty Harry. She had the kid the who was afraid that the pictures wouldn't be there later if they closed the book - think video tape. She had the kid who was kept in a closet at home for four years before third grade. The kid whose mom called the school to say he wouldn't be in because the boy friend had just killed the baby brother - and that's how the police found out when the principal called them - that's one of kids whose improvement on the FCAT determined her bonus. These are the kids who stand out from the usual parents in jail or dead of AIDS or homeless or just coming to school hungry or sick because they don't have affordable health care. Why is she in the union? Well so that some born again Southern Baptist principal can't fire her tattooed Wiccan ass.]

by jstalin 12y ago

bradleyjg 12y ago

On the other hand, tiny little school districts were created for the purposes of racial segregation and continue to act as mechanisms of racial and economic segregation. Also depending on state law and various other contingent factors, you can end up with regional or even state wide union contracts even with balkanized school districts. Finally, specialized (including aggressively tracked) schools are difficult to impossible with small catchment areas that only support a few schools per level. Although it's far far from perfect, the NYC education department has managed to increase principal autonomy somewhat without throwing out all the advantages to scale.

carsongross 12y ago
And there, my friends, is the totalitarian impulse: "We must coercively centralize in the name of platonic ideals, damn the costs."
- icebraining 12y ago
  You must have read a different post than me. The one I read pointed concrete (true or not) problems with the model of small school districts, not "platonic ideals".
- gagaga 12y ago
  And there, my friends, is the spin: "Let me poorly reduce someone's well reasoned statement into a biased sentence."

drzaiusapelord 12y ago

> and getting rid of bad teachers is essentially hopeless. This is the big problem with education. I don't like how unions have co-opted the narrative to "Just pay us more and we'll finally do our jobs right" which somehow has become crowd friendly. Instead better performance testing and easier firing is what we need, especially in my hometown of Chicago. Public sector unions have interests that go against those of taxpayers by default. Until we fix unions we won't fix education.

acdha 12y ago
> I don't like how unions have co-opted the narrative to "Just pay us more and we'll finally do our jobs right" They're probably even less happy about the right-wing has co-opted the narrative that the problems in education are caused by the teachers. Teaching is a challenging job which requires an advanced degree, very long hours with no flexibility, low pay even before you adjust for true hours worked, and you are given very little professional discretion. Do you really think you're going to get better results by putting even more pressure on things which teachers have only marginal control over[1] rather than simply encouraging more teachers to leave? To put some facts into the discussion: this assessment by the American Statistical Association found that teachers are responsible for 1 to 14% of student's test score variance: http://www.amstat.org/policy/pdfs/ASA_VAM_Statement.pdf http://www.amstat.org/policy/pdfs/ASA_VAM_Statement.pdf Follow Amdahl's law: even if you could load the school up with the best teachers on the planet, lavish pay, fully merit-based, etc. you're not going to see the kind of improvements you're claiming. The problems start outside of the classroom and need to be fixed there.
- waterlesscloud 12y ago
  "The problems start outside of the classroom and need to fixed there." So you'd agree that more money for schools is not the answer?
  - acdha 12y ago
    In general, yes, although I do have one major exception: paying teachers more would reduce turnover (which is expensive to deal with) and I think there's still plenty of room for improvement in support services: tutors, particularly for non-native speakers, special needs assistance, counseling / mentoring / etc. In many cases simply having a second person in the classroom who could help a kid who's struggling, deal with discipline issues, etc. without disrupting the overall lesson as much would be a worthwhile investment. This would cost more, although I'd hope we could compensate by having fewer administrators making hard-to-discern contributions at [generally] much higher pay.

gmu3 12y ago

The union contracts are really out of control. For those that aren't aware, research "rubber rooms". Hundreds of teachers in NYC are literally paid to come and sit in empty rooms and do nothing while they wait years to be reviewed because the districts don't have the ability to fire teachers.

lmm 12y ago
As a European I wouldn't blame the unions there; the right to an arbitration hearing when you're accused of misconduct does not seem unreasonable. What else would you do, allow anyone to just be fired on the principal's say-so? The real problem seems to be that the arbitration proceedings in NYC take years - partly because NYC isn't paying the arbitrators (in contrast to the union, which is paying its half of the arbitrator wages). How is that the union's fault?
- danielweber 12y ago
  What else would you do, allow anyone to just be fired on the principal's say-so? This is the way just about every other profession in the US works. My manager doesn't need to prove anything to anyone to dismiss me.
  - Iftheshoefits 12y ago
    I'm not sure holding up any other profession, much less "just about every other profession" as a model of how we should organize our employer/employee relationships is a good idea. The kind of relationship you describe has created a general environment in which wages are depressed and working conditions continue to deteriorate. Every time unions lose power, workers' working conditions--including compensation and intangibles--deteriorate.
    - danielweber 12y ago
      Most professionals -- which teachers desire to be treated like -- have done quite well over the past 34 years despite fewer and fewer organizational defenses of their conditions. Unskilled labor is another story. Unless teachers should be treated and protected like factory workers. Usually teachers object to that characterization, but if you want to argue for it, okay. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professions [2] I'm assuming you are using Reagan's election as the start date of the professional malaise. Call it a lucky guess.

bluedino 12y ago

You can get rid of the 'bad' teachers but there's a finite supply of 'good' teachers. You can pay them more or give them smaller class sizes or educate them more, but you're still not going to just magically end up with everyone being a great teacher. It's just like you can't make any ten programmers all 10x programmers, no matter what.

thedufer 12y ago
In many places you can't get rid of the bad teachers - largely because of overly powerful unions. People who would make good teachers are driven away from teaching by the perverse incentives. Yes, the number of good teachers is finite, but so few of them are actually in front of students that the upper limit hardly matters for the foreseeable future.

Loughla 12y ago

Thank you for a rational, experience based answer.

cafard 12y ago

I would argue that high school education is generally better in Maryland and Virginia, where school districts are by county (or equivalent city) than in Pennsylvania, where there are many more school districts.

brudgers 12y ago

It's interesting to note that well supported public school districts aren't fighting to switch to charter schools and vouchers and the end to tenure. Nobody is saying "Sure our high school is among the best academically, but think of how much better it would be if the teachers were worried about not having a job next year." Then again, $100 million won't buy them off. Perhaps because it's not enough to cover the construction of a new high school. In a place like Newark, a child's teachers may be the only people in their lives with stable employment. That doesn't matter when implementing free market Wahhabism. Teachers must fear for their jobs. Tenure is an imperfect proxy for employee ownership. As the article shows, it may be a better model than venture capital rocket fuelled disruption. The tragedy, in human terms, is not the failure. The tragedy in human terms is that unjust means were rationalized for ideological ends and the result was still a failure...in human terms. Free market Wahhabism just writes up all those charter schools and consultants and studies and threatened livelihoods to a failed "ability to think outside the box." The solution to the solution failing is always the solution. [Disclaimer: my sister is a public school teacher. Tattooed and pierced, she does the Dirty Harry. She had the kid the who was afraid that the pictures wouldn't be there later if they closed the book - think video tape. She had the kid who was kept in a closet at home for four years before third grade. The kid whose mom called the school to say he wouldn't be in because the boy friend had just killed the baby brother - and that's how the police found out when the principal called them - that's one of kids whose improvement on the FCAT determined her bonus. These are the kids who stand out from the usual parents in jail or dead of AIDS or homeless or just coming to school hungry or sick because they don't have affordable health care. Why is she in the union? Well so that some born again Southern Baptist principal can't fire her tattooed Wiccan ass.]