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So "interest is forbidden" was part of the old christian, muslim and jewish religions? I've seen it argued that Islam's real problem is that they have too good

So "interest is forbidden" was part of the old christian, muslim and jewish religions? I've seen it argued that Islam's real problem is that they have too good sources -- it is harder for those followers to skip those of God's eternal commands which don't work in the modern world... (The most important feature of a working religion -- selective amnesia when rewrit... reinterpreting it? :-) )

asadlionpk 12y ago
I don't get how interest based banking is a "better" way or a required way. I am doing very fine without it :) So those eternal commands seem to be working fine for me I guess.
- bocajuniors 12y ago
  It is our banking system that creates bubbles though.
- BugBrother 12y ago
  I assume that was humorous? If you're not trying to be funny or follow some left wing variant, but really argue for a fundamentalist sharia state or similar, then I'll say: "Have fun with tolerated slavery, oppressed women, maiming of thieves and religiously mandated hatreds. Welcome to the light when you leave the dark ages."
  - fsiefken 12y ago
    I read it as serious with a touch of humor, how come you have a blind spot for that third personal option next to arguing for a sharia state or being funny? I think it's because you can't imagine a muslim to be not oppressing women, tolerating slavery and being full of hate as you say. I can and know muslims who are not like that. To you I say: 'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it'.
    - BugBrother 12y ago
      I assume you argue: Someone can accept some strange stuff in their religion -- e.g. that the supreme being and creator of the universe really, really cares about details of financing and diet for a species in a galaxy far away -- but not other stuff, like e.g. slavery and rules for different sexual subgroups (women, homosexuals) of the species? I also know some muslims. Without witnesses many are about as religious as I am, but most can't do that in public. At an absolute minimum they'd get social problems (ostracism) if they came out of the closet. In worst case, physical danger. Often even their relatives would get problems. Edit: To give an example [After consideration, I removed this. Sorry, but I can't break confidence and risk that someone identifies my friends -- see previous paragraph. But do Google "enemy property act" for an interesting read, re Bangladesh.] My original point was that it is harder for Muslims to just throw away the crazy/inhumane parts of their eternal Truths, since they've got better sources than a set of mutually contradictory books/testaments. So the extreme stuff tends to get back into circulation -- see the social control etc from the 2nd paragraph why that is hard to stop, there is a pressure to be "good" (there is some form of race to the bottom of being holier than thou). The end result is that it is hard to take your suggested third option. Was this clear enough? And your last message to me -- right back at ya...
      - fsiefken 12y ago
        'Was this clear enough', yes I understood your original point and your response. But you haven't understood mine. My point is that your view on muslims and religion in general to me seems so prejudiced that you can't seem to accept an honest anecdote by a fellow programmer from a different culture and mindset at face value without branding it a joke, a left wing oddity or full-on taliban. It's shocking to me that someone in the name of reason gives a nasty response to a well-meant comment. Prejudice and ignorance is one thing, but it's bigotry when you suggest asadlionpk is supportive of a culture of slavery, oppression of women and hate just for his remark that he's is doing fine with following the eternal law of God in this regard. Yes, of course I can see the problems religion has with modernity and the problems it causes for society (the eternal law of interest-free banking is not one of them) and also the problems of social pressure. But a sizable chunk - lots of people I know - in this age of reason have learned to balance both internally and have chosen this belief consciously: your literally hard to take third option. Other examples of these are for example people like imam Afroz Ali (whose esteemed teacher lives under a tree) or Tariq Ramadan. In these links they talk about economic reform inspired by the eternal laws of Islam: http://seekersguidance.org/islamcast/economy-poverty-and-the-consumer-market-islams-proposition-for-solutions-by-imam-afroz-ali http://seekersguidance.org/islamcast/economy-poverty-and-the... http://www.salon.com/2002/02/15/ramadan_2/ http://www.salon.com/2002/02/15/ramadan_2/ I have little reason to believe asadlionpk assumes women shouldn't study or gays should be imprisoned. It's also irrelevant as he was just responding to your side note that some so-called 'eternal laws' don't seem to work in this day and age. The reason I respond like this is because this way of responding to others in the name of enlightened reason is causing problems in my society at the moment. People even talking about leaving the country because they don't feel accepted in their faith and ethnicity. People feeling obligated to make 'happy muslim' video's to counter this mindset. It's not even my faith, as I am christian, but even I have to explain the so called crime of teaching my children about God. A God which is far removed from the deist human like entity you think muslims and christians believe in. Have I understood you correctly? I hope you understand and respect my strong worded response.

asadlionpk 12y ago

I don't get how interest based banking is a "better" way or a required way. I am doing very fine without it :) So those eternal commands seem to be working fine for me I guess.

bocajuniors 12y ago
It is our banking system that creates bubbles though.
BugBrother 12y ago
I assume that was humorous? If you're not trying to be funny or follow some left wing variant, but really argue for a fundamentalist sharia state or similar, then I'll say: "Have fun with tolerated slavery, oppressed women, maiming of thieves and religiously mandated hatreds. Welcome to the light when you leave the dark ages."
- fsiefken 12y ago
  I read it as serious with a touch of humor, how come you have a blind spot for that third personal option next to arguing for a sharia state or being funny? I think it's because you can't imagine a muslim to be not oppressing women, tolerating slavery and being full of hate as you say. I can and know muslims who are not like that. To you I say: 'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it'.
  - BugBrother 12y ago
    I assume you argue: Someone can accept some strange stuff in their religion -- e.g. that the supreme being and creator of the universe really, really cares about details of financing and diet for a species in a galaxy far away -- but not other stuff, like e.g. slavery and rules for different sexual subgroups (women, homosexuals) of the species? I also know some muslims. Without witnesses many are about as religious as I am, but most can't do that in public. At an absolute minimum they'd get social problems (ostracism) if they came out of the closet. In worst case, physical danger. Often even their relatives would get problems. Edit: To give an example [After consideration, I removed this. Sorry, but I can't break confidence and risk that someone identifies my friends -- see previous paragraph. But do Google "enemy property act" for an interesting read, re Bangladesh.] My original point was that it is harder for Muslims to just throw away the crazy/inhumane parts of their eternal Truths, since they've got better sources than a set of mutually contradictory books/testaments. So the extreme stuff tends to get back into circulation -- see the social control etc from the 2nd paragraph why that is hard to stop, there is a pressure to be "good" (there is some form of race to the bottom of being holier than thou). The end result is that it is hard to take your suggested third option. Was this clear enough? And your last message to me -- right back at ya...
    - fsiefken 12y ago
      'Was this clear enough', yes I understood your original point and your response. But you haven't understood mine. My point is that your view on muslims and religion in general to me seems so prejudiced that you can't seem to accept an honest anecdote by a fellow programmer from a different culture and mindset at face value without branding it a joke, a left wing oddity or full-on taliban. It's shocking to me that someone in the name of reason gives a nasty response to a well-meant comment. Prejudice and ignorance is one thing, but it's bigotry when you suggest asadlionpk is supportive of a culture of slavery, oppression of women and hate just for his remark that he's is doing fine with following the eternal law of God in this regard. Yes, of course I can see the problems religion has with modernity and the problems it causes for society (the eternal law of interest-free banking is not one of them) and also the problems of social pressure. But a sizable chunk - lots of people I know - in this age of reason have learned to balance both internally and have chosen this belief consciously: your literally hard to take third option. Other examples of these are for example people like imam Afroz Ali (whose esteemed teacher lives under a tree) or Tariq Ramadan. In these links they talk about economic reform inspired by the eternal laws of Islam: http://seekersguidance.org/islamcast/economy-poverty-and-the-consumer-market-islams-proposition-for-solutions-by-imam-afroz-ali http://seekersguidance.org/islamcast/economy-poverty-and-the... http://www.salon.com/2002/02/15/ramadan_2/ http://www.salon.com/2002/02/15/ramadan_2/ I have little reason to believe asadlionpk assumes women shouldn't study or gays should be imprisoned. It's also irrelevant as he was just responding to your side note that some so-called 'eternal laws' don't seem to work in this day and age. The reason I respond like this is because this way of responding to others in the name of enlightened reason is causing problems in my society at the moment. People even talking about leaving the country because they don't feel accepted in their faith and ethnicity. People feeling obligated to make 'happy muslim' video's to counter this mindset. It's not even my faith, as I am christian, but even I have to explain the so called crime of teaching my children about God. A God which is far removed from the deist human like entity you think muslims and christians believe in. Have I understood you correctly? I hope you understand and respect my strong worded response.