5 ms·

This seem similar to the prohibition of interest or fees for loans of money within Islam. Medieval chrisianity prohibited it as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wi

This seem similar to the prohibition of interest or fees for loans of money within Islam. Medieval chrisianity prohibited it as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usury http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usury

digitalengineer 12y ago
"The fist loan was recorded in 1135. Interest was prohibited, so it was calculated beforehand and included in the total amount borrowed". Funny how people always find ways around prohibition.
aruggirello 12y ago
The same applied to ancient Jews, I believe. Asking for interests for borrowed money was forbidden by the Laws of God. And then there was a Jubilee once every 7*7=49 years, when existing debts were condoned, and a man could return in possession of his house if he (or his parents) somehow had lost it. It was a system promoting mercy and hope even for those who lost everything, rather than creating oppression and exploiting the poor.
- draugadrotten 12y ago
  > And then there was a Jubilee once every 7*7=49 years In modern Sweden, you are debt free in 5 years only, not seven, by invoking "skuldsanering". Paraphrasing you, modern Sweden has a system promoting mercy and hope even for those who lost everything and the Jubilee law meant creating oppression and exploiting the poor.
  - brazzy 12y ago
    Personal bankruptcy laws aren't exactly unique to Sweden. I also think you misunderstand what aruggirello meant.
  - joakiml 12y ago
    The catch though is that you live on an existential minimum throughout that time. Everything you earn above that very low level will go to the state, if I understand the system correctly.
  - ygmelnikova 12y ago
    Besides the Jubilee, there was a 'release' every 7 years, where 'every creditor that lends unto his neighbour shall release it'. In ancient Israel, real estate was forbidden to be permanently 'sold'. You could lease it out for 50 years, but at the Jubilee, it would return back to the family.
  - stuki 12y ago
    Compared to most of Europe, one of the things the US has to recommend it, is easier access to personal bankruptcy, jingle mailing underwater house keys etc. Of course, given the obsession of our time being to trick someone into putting his name on some dotted line, the politicos are doing their darnedest to destroy this, but it's still easier to just walk away in America than in most places. Good to hear Sweden has as good, (perhaps better?) access to such facilities.
- BugBrother 12y ago
  So "interest is forbidden" was part of the old christian, muslim and jewish religions? I've seen it argued that Islam's real problem is that they have too good sources -- it is harder for those followers to skip those of God's eternal commands which don't work in the modern world... (The most important feature of a working religion -- selective amnesia when rewrit... reinterpreting it? :-) )
  - asadlionpk 12y ago
    I don't get how interest based banking is a "better" way or a required way. I am doing very fine without it :) So those eternal commands seem to be working fine for me I guess.
    - bocajuniors 12y ago
      It is our banking system that creates bubbles though.
    - BugBrother 12y ago
      I assume that was humorous? If you're not trying to be funny or follow some left wing variant, but really argue for a fundamentalist sharia state or similar, then I'll say: "Have fun with tolerated slavery, oppressed women, maiming of thieves and religiously mandated hatreds. Welcome to the light when you leave the dark ages."
      - fsiefken 12y ago
        I read it as serious with a touch of humor, how come you have a blind spot for that third personal option next to arguing for a sharia state or being funny? I think it's because you can't imagine a muslim to be not oppressing women, tolerating slavery and being full of hate as you say. I can and know muslims who are not like that. To you I say: 'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it'.
        BugBrother 12y ago
aw3c2 12y ago
It might be some fascist myth (and if so, I am sorry for spreading it, please educate me!) but wasn't one of the reasons for Jewism being condemned by many places that they took interest?
- eli_gottlieb 12y ago
  Jews were exploited by Christian rulers as financiers, in two ways: * Jews were allowed to loan money to non-Jews, whom the Jewish legal system originally counted as "foreigners". (Please remember that these laws were written in a much more tribalistic and xenophobic age.) * Laws were passed keeping Jews out of professions other than peddling and moneylending, thus ensuring a steady supply of Jewish lenders. * If the ruling class didn't want to pay back a Jewish lender, they could just call him a Christ-killer, turn a mob against him, and run him out of town.
  - digitalengineer 12y ago
    Not just Jews. Friday the 13th comes to mind...
ahmed1490 12y ago
One way islam allows for making up for the depreciation of value is that you loan out gold instead of money. And then the borrower has to return back same amount of gold irrespective of its value.
- asadlionpk 12y ago
  Yes, I guess that also prevents insane levels of interest.

digitalengineer 12y ago

"The fist loan was recorded in 1135. Interest was prohibited, so it was calculated beforehand and included in the total amount borrowed". Funny how people always find ways around prohibition.

aruggirello 12y ago

The same applied to ancient Jews, I believe. Asking for interests for borrowed money was forbidden by the Laws of God. And then there was a Jubilee once every 7*7=49 years, when existing debts were condoned, and a man could return in possession of his house if he (or his parents) somehow had lost it. It was a system promoting mercy and hope even for those who lost everything, rather than creating oppression and exploiting the poor.

draugadrotten 12y ago
> And then there was a Jubilee once every 7*7=49 years In modern Sweden, you are debt free in 5 years only, not seven, by invoking "skuldsanering". Paraphrasing you, modern Sweden has a system promoting mercy and hope even for those who lost everything and the Jubilee law meant creating oppression and exploiting the poor.
- brazzy 12y ago
  Personal bankruptcy laws aren't exactly unique to Sweden. I also think you misunderstand what aruggirello meant.
- joakiml 12y ago
  The catch though is that you live on an existential minimum throughout that time. Everything you earn above that very low level will go to the state, if I understand the system correctly.
- ygmelnikova 12y ago
  Besides the Jubilee, there was a 'release' every 7 years, where 'every creditor that lends unto his neighbour shall release it'. In ancient Israel, real estate was forbidden to be permanently 'sold'. You could lease it out for 50 years, but at the Jubilee, it would return back to the family.
- stuki 12y ago
  Compared to most of Europe, one of the things the US has to recommend it, is easier access to personal bankruptcy, jingle mailing underwater house keys etc. Of course, given the obsession of our time being to trick someone into putting his name on some dotted line, the politicos are doing their darnedest to destroy this, but it's still easier to just walk away in America than in most places. Good to hear Sweden has as good, (perhaps better?) access to such facilities.
BugBrother 12y ago
So "interest is forbidden" was part of the old christian, muslim and jewish religions? I've seen it argued that Islam's real problem is that they have too good sources -- it is harder for those followers to skip those of God's eternal commands which don't work in the modern world... (The most important feature of a working religion -- selective amnesia when rewrit... reinterpreting it? :-) )
- asadlionpk 12y ago
  I don't get how interest based banking is a "better" way or a required way. I am doing very fine without it :) So those eternal commands seem to be working fine for me I guess.
  - bocajuniors 12y ago
    It is our banking system that creates bubbles though.
  - BugBrother 12y ago
    I assume that was humorous? If you're not trying to be funny or follow some left wing variant, but really argue for a fundamentalist sharia state or similar, then I'll say: "Have fun with tolerated slavery, oppressed women, maiming of thieves and religiously mandated hatreds. Welcome to the light when you leave the dark ages."
    - fsiefken 12y ago
      I read it as serious with a touch of humor, how come you have a blind spot for that third personal option next to arguing for a sharia state or being funny? I think it's because you can't imagine a muslim to be not oppressing women, tolerating slavery and being full of hate as you say. I can and know muslims who are not like that. To you I say: 'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it'.
      - BugBrother 12y ago

aw3c2 12y ago

It might be some fascist myth (and if so, I am sorry for spreading it, please educate me!) but wasn't one of the reasons for Jewism being condemned by many places that they took interest?

eli_gottlieb 12y ago
Jews were exploited by Christian rulers as financiers, in two ways: * Jews were allowed to loan money to non-Jews, whom the Jewish legal system originally counted as "foreigners". (Please remember that these laws were written in a much more tribalistic and xenophobic age.) * Laws were passed keeping Jews out of professions other than peddling and moneylending, thus ensuring a steady supply of Jewish lenders. * If the ruling class didn't want to pay back a Jewish lender, they could just call him a Christ-killer, turn a mob against him, and run him out of town.
- digitalengineer 12y ago
  Not just Jews. Friday the 13th comes to mind...

ahmed1490 12y ago

One way islam allows for making up for the depreciation of value is that you loan out gold instead of money. And then the borrower has to return back same amount of gold irrespective of its value.

asadlionpk 12y ago
Yes, I guess that also prevents insane levels of interest.