6 ms·

> Iran and Saudi Arabia have both educated girls but refused to empower them, so both remain mired in the past. Any article that compares Iran and Saudi Arabia

> Iran and Saudi Arabia have both educated girls but refused to empower them, so both remain mired in the past. Any article that compares Iran and Saudi Arabia like this is a naive over-generalization. I'm not sure what the author means by empowerment, but Iran is much closer to US in terms of gender equality than Saudi Arabia. In Iran, 12-year education is mandatory for both genders. There are more female university graduates than male (around 60%), although much like US, fewer pursue engineering degrees[1]. More than half of medical students are female. Yes, girls are discriminated against in labor market. There are less likely to get a job if there is a similarly-qualified or slightly less-qualified male candidate and will probably earn less than their male counterparts, but don't you have the same problem in your country? I hope you understand why I hate it when someone puts the name of my country in the same sentence as Saudi Arabia, where they sentenced a woman to flogging because she dared to drive[2]. [1] I don't have any statistics, but in my university, 25-30% engineering students were female. There were less girls in traditionally male-dominated majors like civil engineering, compared to computer and electrical engineering. Also, the majority of Chemistry students were female. [2] http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/flogging-sentence-saudi-arabian-woman-after-driving-beggars-belief-2011-09-27-0 http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/flogging-sentence...

tellarin 12y ago
Interestingly, both Chemistry and Chemical Engineering also have a majority of female students in Brazil. I wonder why. I don't know if it's the same in other places.
na85 12y ago
My observation has been that US media outlets are less and less independent and more and more simply the mouthpiece of the US Government. To that effect, it's pretty much become a requirement for any US media outlet to criticize Iran.
- hueving 12y ago
  Perhaps you could point us to some elected women in powerful Iranian government positions to shed light on this 'American govt propaganda'?
  - na85 12y ago
    I'm sorry, did you misread what I wrote? Perhaps you are under the impression that I claimed Iran was an egalitarian utopia.
  - a-saleh 12y ago
    I am affraid, that closest you can get is Zahra Rahnavard. According to Wikipedia, she was advisor to the former Iranian President Mohammad Khatami. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zahra_Rahnavard http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zahra_Rahnavard I would see US goverment propaganda more in the way they craft the narative about its percieved allies and enemies. And as parent-poster complained, this is most visible in comparing the naratives about "our arabic friends" Saudi Arabia and "on the axis of evil" Iran, where according to wikipedia "are no organizations such as political parties or labour unions to provide public forums" in SA, while in Iran there is Islamic Consultative Assembly and you can protest about unfair presidential elections :-) Way I see this, US-Iranian relationships should be more or less similiar to US-Russian relationship ...
    - eli_gottlieb 12y ago
      Funny thing: there are no organizations such as labor unions to provide public forums in the United States of America, either. Not substantively active labor-unions, at least.
      - waps 12y ago
        And there is effective slavery in Saudi Arabia (though not in Iran, it's one of their high profile exceptions to islam). OTOH there is real slavery in Mali and several other Saharan islamic nations, so this "truly backward" culture as the other post put it is widespread, geographically and among people. And of course, let's ignore the fact that there is one reason for this, and the fact that people of the same ideology in the US also by and large support slavery, racist law, religious warfare and so on. We are simply to accept is as socially normal and even desirable that there is a sizeable (several millions at least) voting block in the USA that wants to bring back slavery, destroy the principle of equality under the law (men-women, dhimmi, slaves, ...). Here's the argument that is defeating equality under the law and bringing back slavery around the world : Tolerance ! (Since shariah law has been implemented in 4 extra countries in the last 5 years, and has made inroads in western nations including the UK and the US, I think it's a very defensible position that it's gaining ground). This would be funny, but it's very real. It's so completely pathetic. So are you pro-slavery ? Or are you a racist ? This religion needs to be eradicated, to be returned to just being one more book that illustrates just how much of an abomination historical cultures were. It's that simple. And we generally need to lose the noble savage attitude. The vast majority of human cultures are out-of-date, repressive, slavery-based, anti-equality, ... , and generally horrible abominations to live in. Islam is one of these, but this should be the default position of anyone on any culture, because, well, the vast majority of cultures are horrible for the people living in them, and are moral abominations. And NOT just because of economic conditions. We need to stop the "ooh shiny robes on the priests, and nice buildings in Dubai" attitude towards other religions and look at how they treat people.
sliverstorm 12y ago
in my university, 25-30% engineering students were female You're doing better than the USA by, what, an order of magnitude in this regard.
- jebus989 12y ago
  In the US 18% engineering students at undergraduate level were female as of 2012 [0]. In fact, apparently in Iran almost 70% of science graduates are female [1], making the courses less diverse in terms of gender than the US, which I believe is closer to 50/50 for "science" collectively (can't find data). [0] http://chronicle.com/article/In-Terms-of-Gender/135304/ http://chronicle.com/article/In-Terms-of-Gender/135304/ [1] http://contexts.org/articles/spring-2011/what-gender-is-science/ http://contexts.org/articles/spring-2011/what-gender-is-scie...
  - smnrchrds 12y ago
    In Iran science usually means chemistry, physics, mathematics, computer science (which is, unlike its name, a branch of mathematics and is taught in math department with almost no computers involved), biology, etc. As I mentioned, chemistry was female-dominated in my university. I'm not sure about the others, but I guess they would be the same. I was referring to engineering majors when I said the 25-30% statistics.
- gdy 12y ago
  I wonder if there is a reliable source for this number
  - saurik 12y ago
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_gender_restrictions_in_education http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_gender_restrictions_in_... """As of 2006, women accounted for over half of university students in Iran[1] and 70% of Iran's science and engineering students.[2]""" [1]: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5359672.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5359672.stm [2]: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v444/n7115/full/444022a.html http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v444/n7115/full/444022a...
DrJokepu 12y ago
This is because Western thinking about the Middle East is still dominated by orientalism, which allows us to relate to the Middle East as a culturally homogeneous block of Muslims snake charmers wearing turbans whose culture is ultimately inferior to ours yet theirs have its good sides (say, respect of family values) in their charming savage ways. It's been like this for many hundreds of years. It's truly shameful.
- Peaker 12y ago
  It is not homogenous, but Saudi Arabian culture, for instance, is truly inferior.
  - azth 12y ago
    That's the same type of generalization the OP wanted to avoid.
    - Peaker 12y ago
      You mean there are significant subcultures of Saudi Arabia which don't place women as second class, support archaic death penalties for adultery, and would fall under the label "Saudi Arabian culture"?
      - azth 12y ago
        They definitely have problems, I didn't say otherwise. See my other comment, Iran has the death penalty for female rape victims. So labeling the Saudi culture as "truly inferior" doesn't make sense to be honest. They have education facilities and higher colleges for women, including engineering and science majors. Look up the King Abdullah University of Science and Technology for instance (though it's coed). Hopefully, with education things will improve for everyone -- including women. There are already signs of this.
        Peaker 12y ago
        Inferior as compared with Western culture, I meant. Both Iran and Saudi Arabia are, IMO.
azth 12y ago
> in the same sentence as Saudi Arabia, where they sentenced a woman to flogging because she dared to drive And in Iran women get executed for things outside their control[1]. How does your point relate to anything? Both Saudi and Iranian cultures have problems. What you mentioned is completely irrelevant. FYI, Saudi Arabia has colleges for women, where 100% of the student body is female (engineering majors too). [1] http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/iranian-rape-victim-faces-hanging-sex-assault-claims-article-1.1762712 http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/iranian-rape-victim-fa...

tellarin 12y ago

Interestingly, both Chemistry and Chemical Engineering also have a majority of female students in Brazil. I wonder why. I don't know if it's the same in other places.

na85 12y ago

My observation has been that US media outlets are less and less independent and more and more simply the mouthpiece of the US Government. To that effect, it's pretty much become a requirement for any US media outlet to criticize Iran.

hueving 12y ago
Perhaps you could point us to some elected women in powerful Iranian government positions to shed light on this 'American govt propaganda'?
- na85 12y ago
  I'm sorry, did you misread what I wrote? Perhaps you are under the impression that I claimed Iran was an egalitarian utopia.
- a-saleh 12y ago
  I am affraid, that closest you can get is Zahra Rahnavard. According to Wikipedia, she was advisor to the former Iranian President Mohammad Khatami. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zahra_Rahnavard http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zahra_Rahnavard I would see US goverment propaganda more in the way they craft the narative about its percieved allies and enemies. And as parent-poster complained, this is most visible in comparing the naratives about "our arabic friends" Saudi Arabia and "on the axis of evil" Iran, where according to wikipedia "are no organizations such as political parties or labour unions to provide public forums" in SA, while in Iran there is Islamic Consultative Assembly and you can protest about unfair presidential elections :-) Way I see this, US-Iranian relationships should be more or less similiar to US-Russian relationship ...
  - eli_gottlieb 12y ago
    Funny thing: there are no organizations such as labor unions to provide public forums in the United States of America, either. Not substantively active labor-unions, at least.
    - waps 12y ago
      And there is effective slavery in Saudi Arabia (though not in Iran, it's one of their high profile exceptions to islam). OTOH there is real slavery in Mali and several other Saharan islamic nations, so this "truly backward" culture as the other post put it is widespread, geographically and among people. And of course, let's ignore the fact that there is one reason for this, and the fact that people of the same ideology in the US also by and large support slavery, racist law, religious warfare and so on. We are simply to accept is as socially normal and even desirable that there is a sizeable (several millions at least) voting block in the USA that wants to bring back slavery, destroy the principle of equality under the law (men-women, dhimmi, slaves, ...). Here's the argument that is defeating equality under the law and bringing back slavery around the world : Tolerance ! (Since shariah law has been implemented in 4 extra countries in the last 5 years, and has made inroads in western nations including the UK and the US, I think it's a very defensible position that it's gaining ground). This would be funny, but it's very real. It's so completely pathetic. So are you pro-slavery ? Or are you a racist ? This religion needs to be eradicated, to be returned to just being one more book that illustrates just how much of an abomination historical cultures were. It's that simple. And we generally need to lose the noble savage attitude. The vast majority of human cultures are out-of-date, repressive, slavery-based, anti-equality, ... , and generally horrible abominations to live in. Islam is one of these, but this should be the default position of anyone on any culture, because, well, the vast majority of cultures are horrible for the people living in them, and are moral abominations. And NOT just because of economic conditions. We need to stop the "ooh shiny robes on the priests, and nice buildings in Dubai" attitude towards other religions and look at how they treat people.

sliverstorm 12y ago

in my university, 25-30% engineering students were female You're doing better than the USA by, what, an order of magnitude in this regard.

jebus989 12y ago
In the US 18% engineering students at undergraduate level were female as of 2012 [0]. In fact, apparently in Iran almost 70% of science graduates are female [1], making the courses less diverse in terms of gender than the US, which I believe is closer to 50/50 for "science" collectively (can't find data). [0] http://chronicle.com/article/In-Terms-of-Gender/135304/ http://chronicle.com/article/In-Terms-of-Gender/135304/ [1] http://contexts.org/articles/spring-2011/what-gender-is-science/ http://contexts.org/articles/spring-2011/what-gender-is-scie...
- smnrchrds 12y ago
  In Iran science usually means chemistry, physics, mathematics, computer science (which is, unlike its name, a branch of mathematics and is taught in math department with almost no computers involved), biology, etc. As I mentioned, chemistry was female-dominated in my university. I'm not sure about the others, but I guess they would be the same. I was referring to engineering majors when I said the 25-30% statistics.
gdy 12y ago
I wonder if there is a reliable source for this number
- saurik 12y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_gender_restrictions_in_education http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_gender_restrictions_in_... """As of 2006, women accounted for over half of university students in Iran[1] and 70% of Iran's science and engineering students.[2]""" [1]: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5359672.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5359672.stm [2]: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v444/n7115/full/444022a.html http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v444/n7115/full/444022a...

DrJokepu 12y ago

This is because Western thinking about the Middle East is still dominated by orientalism, which allows us to relate to the Middle East as a culturally homogeneous block of Muslims snake charmers wearing turbans whose culture is ultimately inferior to ours yet theirs have its good sides (say, respect of family values) in their charming savage ways. It's been like this for many hundreds of years. It's truly shameful.

Peaker 12y ago
It is not homogenous, but Saudi Arabian culture, for instance, is truly inferior.
- azth 12y ago
  That's the same type of generalization the OP wanted to avoid.
  - Peaker 12y ago
    You mean there are significant subcultures of Saudi Arabia which don't place women as second class, support archaic death penalties for adultery, and would fall under the label "Saudi Arabian culture"?
    - azth 12y ago
      They definitely have problems, I didn't say otherwise. See my other comment, Iran has the death penalty for female rape victims. So labeling the Saudi culture as "truly inferior" doesn't make sense to be honest. They have education facilities and higher colleges for women, including engineering and science majors. Look up the King Abdullah University of Science and Technology for instance (though it's coed). Hopefully, with education things will improve for everyone -- including women. There are already signs of this.
      - Peaker 12y ago
        Inferior as compared with Western culture, I meant. Both Iran and Saudi Arabia are, IMO.

azth 12y ago

> in the same sentence as Saudi Arabia, where they sentenced a woman to flogging because she dared to drive And in Iran women get executed for things outside their control[1]. How does your point relate to anything? Both Saudi and Iranian cultures have problems. What you mentioned is completely irrelevant. FYI, Saudi Arabia has colleges for women, where 100% of the student body is female (engineering majors too). [1] http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/iranian-rape-victim-faces-hanging-sex-assault-claims-article-1.1762712 http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/iranian-rape-victim-fa...