> So you basically define an entire group of people based on only the ones you've met. Even then, you admit that none of them are good. Thus, all "software engi

> So you basically define an entire group of people based on only the ones you've met. Even then, you admit that none of them are good. Thus, all "software engineers" are bad? No, sorry if that's what ended up being understood (I assume you didn't read my whole comment?) What I meant was that when I worked there, I've seen worse code coming from actual programmers than from scientists who wrote code, but didn't think of themselves as programmers. This isn't much of a surprise; it was a research lab and money were fairly tight since we were researching neither weapons nor patentable drugs. Most of it was spent on equipment and scientists. The under-paid programmers were usually under-skilled, too; brighter folks quickly left for greener pa$ture$, leaving the ones who couldn't otherwise land a job behind.