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"The NSA has been covertly implanting interception tools in US servers heading overseas..." Which is Somewhat Ok, given the NSA charter. What is the more inte

"The NSA has been covertly implanting interception tools in US servers heading overseas..." Which is Somewhat Ok, given the NSA charter. What is the more interesting question - Is this limited to "US servers heading overseas..?" I mean we already know that NSA intercepts Laptops, Keyboards and such routinely for special "people of interest" within the US. Does it do the same i.e. routinely and indiscriminately bug routers even within the US?

deleted 12y ago
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insuffi 12y ago
Excuse me? How is that somewhat OK? I don't give a damn about the NSA charter or even the constitution which so many people seem to bring up in hopes of justifying mass surveillance of civilians abroad - is mass spying on foreign civilians really OK at this point? Pre-emptively setting up infrastructure for surveillance without any warrants, in a sovereign state? What about enterprise customers? Is it still "OK" if they carry out economic espionage? Surely laws should only be considered if the situation in question relates to an american?
- cylinder 12y ago
  This is all about economic/corporate espionage, not "homeland security." Customers overseas are already realizing that. This is an understated threat to US IT companies.
  - mark_l_watson 12y ago
    +1 I agree. Some evidence: http://www.businessinsider.com/the-snowden-effect-is-crushing-us-tech-firms-in-china-2014-1 http://www.businessinsider.com/the-snowden-effect-is-crushin... http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/it-firms-lose-billions-after-nsa-scandal-exposed-by-whistleblower-edward-snowden-9028599.html http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/new... http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/22/business/fallout-from-snowden-hurting-bottom-line-of-tech-companies.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/22/business/fallout-from-snow...
- jamra 12y ago
  There is a difference between having the ability to spy and using it en mass without warrants. Tampering with routers gives the NSA the ability to spy. The question of whether or not data is being collected illegally should not be confused with the ability of data to be collected.
  - insuffi 12y ago
    You have a point. However, something really rubs me the wrong way about them having the ability to spy on every person. They are actively going out of their way to set up future channels of spying, without the consent of customers who bought the router in question. And honestly, while your point is valid, there's plenty of discussion available online about rubber stamping warrants - and this sort of implanting of surveillance tools just makes it economically/logistically viable for them to spy on everyone. The question is - do you feel OK about a foreign nation state embedding the ability to invade your privacy? Like you said, they don't have to use it, they just have to be able to use it when necessary. Honestly this sort of hairsplitting is just silly.
  - pessimizer 12y ago
    >The question of whether or not data is being collected illegally Is not public knowledge, and the administration fights to keep it that way.
- superuser2 12y ago
  You inserted "mass spying," "foreign civilians," and "pre-emptive." They are nowhere in the evidence around this program. For all you know, NSA is only rerouting shipments bound for legitimate threats. I wouldn't be surprised if this tool is used inappropriately as well, but there's nothing inherently mass, pre-emptive, or civilian-targeting about it.
mpyne 12y ago
As usual, both Greenwald and the Guardian leave out the details which would be important: Namely, whether this is generic tampering with exported kit, or "targeted access operations" of the type explicitly praised by such pro-government luminaries as Snowden and Assange, tampering with kit going to known locations where intelligence is needed. Now I don't have details on which one this is either, but we do know that NSA has only so many people with the know-how and authority to tamper with devices, implant backdoors, and package it all back up in a factory seal, and that this is accordingly not a skill that can be wasted on a router that might simply end up in a church in Guinea-Bissau.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

insuffi 12y ago

Excuse me? How is that somewhat OK? I don't give a damn about the NSA charter or even the constitution which so many people seem to bring up in hopes of justifying mass surveillance of civilians abroad - is mass spying on foreign civilians really OK at this point? Pre-emptively setting up infrastructure for surveillance without any warrants, in a sovereign state? What about enterprise customers? Is it still "OK" if they carry out economic espionage? Surely laws should only be considered if the situation in question relates to an american?

cylinder 12y ago
This is all about economic/corporate espionage, not "homeland security." Customers overseas are already realizing that. This is an understated threat to US IT companies.
- mark_l_watson 12y ago
  +1 I agree. Some evidence: http://www.businessinsider.com/the-snowden-effect-is-crushing-us-tech-firms-in-china-2014-1 http://www.businessinsider.com/the-snowden-effect-is-crushin... http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/it-firms-lose-billions-after-nsa-scandal-exposed-by-whistleblower-edward-snowden-9028599.html http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/new... http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/22/business/fallout-from-snowden-hurting-bottom-line-of-tech-companies.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/22/business/fallout-from-snow...
jamra 12y ago
There is a difference between having the ability to spy and using it en mass without warrants. Tampering with routers gives the NSA the ability to spy. The question of whether or not data is being collected illegally should not be confused with the ability of data to be collected.
- insuffi 12y ago
  You have a point. However, something really rubs me the wrong way about them having the ability to spy on every person. They are actively going out of their way to set up future channels of spying, without the consent of customers who bought the router in question. And honestly, while your point is valid, there's plenty of discussion available online about rubber stamping warrants - and this sort of implanting of surveillance tools just makes it economically/logistically viable for them to spy on everyone. The question is - do you feel OK about a foreign nation state embedding the ability to invade your privacy? Like you said, they don't have to use it, they just have to be able to use it when necessary. Honestly this sort of hairsplitting is just silly.
- pessimizer 12y ago
  >The question of whether or not data is being collected illegally Is not public knowledge, and the administration fights to keep it that way.
superuser2 12y ago
You inserted "mass spying," "foreign civilians," and "pre-emptive." They are nowhere in the evidence around this program. For all you know, NSA is only rerouting shipments bound for legitimate threats. I wouldn't be surprised if this tool is used inappropriately as well, but there's nothing inherently mass, pre-emptive, or civilian-targeting about it.

mpyne 12y ago

As usual, both Greenwald and the Guardian leave out the details which would be important: Namely, whether this is generic tampering with exported kit, or "targeted access operations" of the type explicitly praised by such pro-government luminaries as Snowden and Assange, tampering with kit going to known locations where intelligence is needed. Now I don't have details on which one this is either, but we do know that NSA has only so many people with the know-how and authority to tamper with devices, implant backdoors, and package it all back up in a factory seal, and that this is accordingly not a skill that can be wasted on a router that might simply end up in a church in Guinea-Bissau.